Seon
Not An Evil Liar
Danalin's vault I think. As evidenced by one of the campagins. Although if Danalin wakes up, he may kick them out.
The Layers of Hell
- Thread starter Kael
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thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
It probably depends on thier actions in life. not all OO cults are evil , slaving cults. Some Cults are philanthropic... it all depends on what thier respective Overlord tells them. it is in no way a unified religion. therefore, I'm sure Sirona could claim some of the Good ones, while Hell may grab the evil cultists.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Danalin is worshiped indirectly thought the cults of the overlords, so I suspect that many overlord worshipers would wind up in Danalin's vault. However, the Overlords themselves are extremely selfish beings, as are the highest ranking cultists. Even if Mammon's archangel was not (indirectly) responsible for the creation of the Overlords, I would be inclined to think that a significant proportion of the higher class overlords' followers go straight to Mammon's hell.
I believe that in any religion only the truly devout wind up in their god's vault (although evil gods have a much looser interpretation of what being devout means). Most souls remain unclaimed and so find their rest in the netherworld, where they spend the rest of eternity dreaming and being punished or rewarded based on what their subconscious believe they deserve..
While some Overlords aren't are malevolent as others and may be willing to do good just to spite their rivals, I would not consider any of them even benevolent or philanthropic. That does not mean individual cultists or dreamers can't be good people though.
I believe that there are still some temples devoted to the old faith of Danalin, but since the god of water's slumber means he no longer answersany prayers these aren't as popular as they once were. I have evidence that at least one Illian village turned to worshiping the sleeping god of water in place of the dead god of ice. However, I don't know exactly when Hastur entered Danalin's vault or when Hemah was born, so it could be that the old faith lasted for the first few years of the age of rebirth but was wiped out when the overlords emerged.
I believe that in any religion only the truly devout wind up in their god's vault (although evil gods have a much looser interpretation of what being devout means). Most souls remain unclaimed and so find their rest in the netherworld, where they spend the rest of eternity dreaming and being punished or rewarded based on what their subconscious believe they deserve..
While some Overlords aren't are malevolent as others and may be willing to do good just to spite their rivals, I would not consider any of them even benevolent or philanthropic. That does not mean individual cultists or dreamers can't be good people though.
I believe that there are still some temples devoted to the old faith of Danalin, but since the god of water's slumber means he no longer answersany prayers these aren't as popular as they once were. I have evidence that at least one Illian village turned to worshiping the sleeping god of water in place of the dead god of ice. However, I don't know exactly when Hastur entered Danalin's vault or when Hemah was born, so it could be that the old faith lasted for the first few years of the age of rebirth but was wiped out when the overlords emerged.
KillerClowns
Emperor
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It'd be logical to assume that Hastur was sent shortly after Danalin's post-Aifon-annihilation slumber began. It surely wouldn't take Mammon/Hastur (I don't recall whose idea it was) centuries to realize "ooh, let's give the Sleeping God nightmares and see what happens!" Hemah may, however, be a relatively new part of the equation, some indirect result of Mulcarn's death. After all, the world awakening after a few centuries of icy slumber would surely cause the Sleeping God to toss and turn a bit.
kenkrajen
Prince
If that was the case one would think bhall's fiery fall, or mulcarn entering creation, or duking it out with succellus or kylorin might have at least made him roll over if not wake up. And it would really make sense for mammon to have sent hastur the second danalin fell asleep since foresight was his precept.
TC01
Deity
Didn't Hastur invade Oghma's vault at the beginning of the Age of Ice? I thought I remembered that from somewhere. Whch would mean Hastur didn't arrive in Danalin's vault until maybe the beginning of the Age of Rebirth..?
Assuming, of course, the gods are bound by the same laws of physics and time that mortals are.
I like to think they aren't....time likely has little meaning to an eternal god....who's to say Hastur couldn't invade Oghma's vault and Danalin's vault at the same time?
thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
Only the one has control over time. The gods are as prey to it as mortals.
Dean_the_Young
King
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Out of curiosity, what would happen to someone with multiple personality disorder, in that they had a bunch of different personalities/minds that believed in multiple gods/could be claimed for multiple hells?
Say one side is a greedy guy worthy of Mammon, another Sirona, and a bunch of others thrown in. Who gets dibs?
Say one side is a greedy guy worthy of Mammon, another Sirona, and a bunch of others thrown in. Who gets dibs?
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
I'd say Mammon because he gets dibs on crazy folks or Hastur does. If not, he may get claimed by OO Danalin. Sirona may try to cure him while he is alive though.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
It isn't really clear that even the One had time control power. Creating the Orb of Temporance may have involved willingly limiting his own power in that regard.
Different planes have different laws of physics. The gods wrote the laws of physics in their own vault and worked together to write the laws that govern Erebus. There were limitations to what they could write though, such as not being able to control time. When The One removed the power to create ex nihilo, he also removed the ability to rewrite the laws of physics. Such laws can however still be bent somewhat, by anyone with a divine spark. Such rule bending is called magic, but since the rules cannot truly be changed anything magically altered will eventually return to its previous state, even if the one using the magic was a god. Because their divine sparks are closer to the source and so likely stronger, because they have the most experience using magic, and because they know the laws they wrote better than any mortal could hope to learn the gods' magic is far superior to that or men, but their miracles are not eternal.
Ceridwen has access to far more planes of existence than the other gods know exist, and a lot of these were specifically made to have laws radially different from those of Erebus. Connecting planes that operate under different laws of physics allows for the most powerful forms of magic.
Magic also depends upon the raw materials of the 21 precepts. Humans are limited to channeling this from sources in their own plane, or at least planes that are closely connected. Gods do not have this limitation, and neither to Djinni. Each god's own body serves as an immense well of the power of his own precept so they have no need to gather mana together before releasing it. Agares created an infinite plane of each element and created the gems of creation to allow channeling this power out. He made this power available to all the gods, and even the most good gods continue to use his while damning him for the act of making them. Agares hates them mostly for this hypocrisy. The well of power within each god was likely refilled from these gems, although I suspect The One wanted the gods to exhaust their precepts so that they would become balanced and have the true free will that the gods lack. I like to think that The One values freedom as much as Agares, but while Agares thinks he needs power to be free The One knows that no soul can be free unless freed from the burden of power. I think that kind of freedom would be anathema to Ceridwen, who views it as the complete destruction of her precept, so she incited Agares to rebel.
The Gems of Water, Air, and Death have been stolen by mortals, who are now practically as powerful as gods although they remain mortal and don't fully understand how to use the power. In Kael's D&D Campaign, Tuoni, the brother who holds the Gem of Death, was the main enemy behind Tebryn's attempt to destroy the world. He wanted to kill everyone and enslave their souls in order to make a new world of the dead where he would reign supreme. Auric supported the ritual early on but fought to stop it when it came close to completion. When the players stopped it, they allowed Auric to use the power that the ritual had already gathered in order to ascend to be the new god of ice. The brother who held the Gem of Air was not named or encountered, but used as an excuse for why the party could not find any allies willing to help them. He had set himself up as a godking and was trying to conquer the world, or maybe he just loved the thrill of destroying random stuff . All armies sent against him were destroyed by tornadoes. I tend to think that having access to so much of the precepts deeply effected the psyche. The Gem of Air would make its user an extreme daredevil who never thinks of the consequences of his actions, so he would eventually die in an incredible stupid accident. The brother with the Gem of Water seems to have disappeared and never really caused anyone trouble. I suspect the nature of the water sphere meant he became really a passive "go with the flow" type with no interest in ruling the world or hurting anyone. It would make him really introverted and pensive, and perhaps just too lazy to use the gem enough to make him go crazy like his brothers.
getting back on subject...
In the D&D campaign where the forces of Mammon invaded Oghma's vault, that vault was Erebus. I believe that Kael has stated it still happened in FfH canon, although Oghma's vault is not Erebus, the cities of Alexandria and Prespur and the Cliffs of Hastur are in Erebus instead, and Lita the Witch is no longer an angel of Oghma. Mardero was conceived as a half human to get around the Compact, rather than half angel-of-Oghma in order to be immune to the food that wiped the memories of the demons that tried to invade the vault.
It has never been stated that Hastur was involved in the invasion of Oghma's vault, only that armies of Mammon invaded. I conjectured that Hastur is the demon who raped Lita, but that is based mostly on the name of the cliffs from which she was dropped, and in the canon those cliffs are in a part of Erebus now owned by the Balseraphs. As Mammon's archangel he would be the most logical general in that war, but he may not have entered the vault personally. Perhaps he stayed on the outside coordinating strategies, or maybe he foresaw the mist and so just sent demons where they would cause the most damage without any hope that they would remember their orders.
The forces of Mammon invaded Oghma's vault for a specific reason, to find an extremely important secret that could be found only in a library there. The mist means that the demons there don't know what they are seeking though, and wouldn't know if they found it. I have no clue what the secret is, but I tend to think it probably involves The One. Maybe he has secretly returned or found a way to communicate to the Luonnatar. Maybe he left a way to contact him, one secret backdoor into the true heaven. Or it could be something completely different. It is possible that the forces of Mammon recovered some other important secrets before the mist changed the nature of the war. Maybe in Oghma's vault Hastur discovered that he could manipulate the subconscious of a sleeping god to unlock power far greater than that of any waking deity, and could do so without violating the letter of the Compact.
I don't recall Condatis saying how long Hastur has been in her god's vault, but it sounded like it was a relatively recent occurrence. It is possible that she successfully defended the vault of water from the forces of Mammon for several centuries, and has only recently failed to keep Hastur away.
Also of interest, Condatis seems to think that Hastur was coordinating the actions of Tebryn in order to make him destroy the world just to distract her from keeping him away from Danalin. Mammon is not a god who wants the world destroyed, so it seems unlikely that his archangel would risk it unless controlling Danalin is really important.
What if he found evidence in Oghma's vault that controlling Danalin's dreams was the key to defeating The One? What if Oghma planted false evidence to this effect, just to get him to back off or maybe in an attempt to manipulate the master manipulator into doing something that would eventually lead to the downfall of the evil gods?
Different planes have different laws of physics. The gods wrote the laws of physics in their own vault and worked together to write the laws that govern Erebus. There were limitations to what they could write though, such as not being able to control time. When The One removed the power to create ex nihilo, he also removed the ability to rewrite the laws of physics. Such laws can however still be bent somewhat, by anyone with a divine spark. Such rule bending is called magic, but since the rules cannot truly be changed anything magically altered will eventually return to its previous state, even if the one using the magic was a god. Because their divine sparks are closer to the source and so likely stronger, because they have the most experience using magic, and because they know the laws they wrote better than any mortal could hope to learn the gods' magic is far superior to that or men, but their miracles are not eternal.
Ceridwen has access to far more planes of existence than the other gods know exist, and a lot of these were specifically made to have laws radially different from those of Erebus. Connecting planes that operate under different laws of physics allows for the most powerful forms of magic.
Magic also depends upon the raw materials of the 21 precepts. Humans are limited to channeling this from sources in their own plane, or at least planes that are closely connected. Gods do not have this limitation, and neither to Djinni. Each god's own body serves as an immense well of the power of his own precept so they have no need to gather mana together before releasing it. Agares created an infinite plane of each element and created the gems of creation to allow channeling this power out. He made this power available to all the gods, and even the most good gods continue to use his while damning him for the act of making them. Agares hates them mostly for this hypocrisy. The well of power within each god was likely refilled from these gems, although I suspect The One wanted the gods to exhaust their precepts so that they would become balanced and have the true free will that the gods lack. I like to think that The One values freedom as much as Agares, but while Agares thinks he needs power to be free The One knows that no soul can be free unless freed from the burden of power. I think that kind of freedom would be anathema to Ceridwen, who views it as the complete destruction of her precept, so she incited Agares to rebel.
The Gems of Water, Air, and Death have been stolen by mortals, who are now practically as powerful as gods although they remain mortal and don't fully understand how to use the power. In Kael's D&D Campaign, Tuoni, the brother who holds the Gem of Death, was the main enemy behind Tebryn's attempt to destroy the world. He wanted to kill everyone and enslave their souls in order to make a new world of the dead where he would reign supreme. Auric supported the ritual early on but fought to stop it when it came close to completion. When the players stopped it, they allowed Auric to use the power that the ritual had already gathered in order to ascend to be the new god of ice. The brother who held the Gem of Air was not named or encountered, but used as an excuse for why the party could not find any allies willing to help them. He had set himself up as a godking and was trying to conquer the world, or maybe he just loved the thrill of destroying random stuff . All armies sent against him were destroyed by tornadoes. I tend to think that having access to so much of the precepts deeply effected the psyche. The Gem of Air would make its user an extreme daredevil who never thinks of the consequences of his actions, so he would eventually die in an incredible stupid accident. The brother with the Gem of Water seems to have disappeared and never really caused anyone trouble. I suspect the nature of the water sphere meant he became really a passive "go with the flow" type with no interest in ruling the world or hurting anyone. It would make him really introverted and pensive, and perhaps just too lazy to use the gem enough to make him go crazy like his brothers.
getting back on subject...
In the D&D campaign where the forces of Mammon invaded Oghma's vault, that vault was Erebus. I believe that Kael has stated it still happened in FfH canon, although Oghma's vault is not Erebus, the cities of Alexandria and Prespur and the Cliffs of Hastur are in Erebus instead, and Lita the Witch is no longer an angel of Oghma. Mardero was conceived as a half human to get around the Compact, rather than half angel-of-Oghma in order to be immune to the food that wiped the memories of the demons that tried to invade the vault.
It has never been stated that Hastur was involved in the invasion of Oghma's vault, only that armies of Mammon invaded. I conjectured that Hastur is the demon who raped Lita, but that is based mostly on the name of the cliffs from which she was dropped, and in the canon those cliffs are in a part of Erebus now owned by the Balseraphs. As Mammon's archangel he would be the most logical general in that war, but he may not have entered the vault personally. Perhaps he stayed on the outside coordinating strategies, or maybe he foresaw the mist and so just sent demons where they would cause the most damage without any hope that they would remember their orders.
The forces of Mammon invaded Oghma's vault for a specific reason, to find an extremely important secret that could be found only in a library there. The mist means that the demons there don't know what they are seeking though, and wouldn't know if they found it. I have no clue what the secret is, but I tend to think it probably involves The One. Maybe he has secretly returned or found a way to communicate to the Luonnatar. Maybe he left a way to contact him, one secret backdoor into the true heaven. Or it could be something completely different. It is possible that the forces of Mammon recovered some other important secrets before the mist changed the nature of the war. Maybe in Oghma's vault Hastur discovered that he could manipulate the subconscious of a sleeping god to unlock power far greater than that of any waking deity, and could do so without violating the letter of the Compact.
I don't recall Condatis saying how long Hastur has been in her god's vault, but it sounded like it was a relatively recent occurrence. It is possible that she successfully defended the vault of water from the forces of Mammon for several centuries, and has only recently failed to keep Hastur away.
Also of interest, Condatis seems to think that Hastur was coordinating the actions of Tebryn in order to make him destroy the world just to distract her from keeping him away from Danalin. Mammon is not a god who wants the world destroyed, so it seems unlikely that his archangel would risk it unless controlling Danalin is really important.
What if he found evidence in Oghma's vault that controlling Danalin's dreams was the key to defeating The One? What if Oghma planted false evidence to this effect, just to get him to back off or maybe in an attempt to manipulate the master manipulator into doing something that would eventually lead to the downfall of the evil gods?
thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
OOooh... Trippy. 
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
I wouldn't sasy that, Mammon is now the god of short-term rewards and not considering the consequences of your actions. I think he may simple have not considered the result of destroying the world.
Onionsoilder
Reaver
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2007
- Messages
- 3,173
Huh? Mammon is the god of greed and foresight. Since he can essentially read the future, how can he not consider the results of his actions?
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Mammon was the God of Foresight. When he fell, he lost the ability to see the future. It was replaced with a strong desire to control the future, and everything else for that matter. He seeks to possess everything, and while he is still quite good at plotting he tends to overlook whatever consequences (especially the negative consequences that others will suffer) that his actions will take apart from those on which he focuses his attention.
Onionsoilder
Reaver
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Really? Huh, I didn't know that. I always thought they maintained control of what they had before...
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Kael seems to prefer to think that their original aspects are completely lost to the world. I prefer to think they still exist, but are much harder to access and trying to do so will generally lead to following the fallen aspect instead.
TC01
Deity
What if a god rose, though? For instance, what if Mulcarn (even though he's dead, I'm picking him because he was the least evil of the evil gods) were to want to rejoin the good/neutral gods and side with the One? Would the precept of winter revert to what it was before he fell? Much as fire flipped to a darker fire once Bhall fell?
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
The Ice sphere didn't change a whole lot. The sphere was always resistance to change, although it become much more reactionary rather than just conservative once he fell. In Mulcarn's musing before his invasion of Erebus he chastised Man for not recognizing that he provides the world a needed period of rest, without which nature would overexert itself and become so overgrow that it was unsustainable and would just decay. He did not really turn on that part of his nature until the Age of Ice. I see Mulcarn, Danalin, and Arawn as all being very important to our ability to sleep. rest, and rejuvenate ourselves for when our strength is needed again.
Although their god was evil, in the Age of Magic the Frost Speakers (Mulcarn's disciples) were not seen as a threat, and were tolerated even my most good nations (every one but the Bannor I'd guess). The White Hand was significantly less evil than the Octopus Overlords or the Cuncil of Esus, probably closer to the Fellowship of the Leaves in alignment (although these faiths probably did no get along very well).
I would agree with Sirona that evil gods can be redeemed, but think it would be very hard and that things could never again be exactly as they used to be. I also tend to think that since the gods originally fell due largely to being too attached to their own power, that willingly surrendering the precept may be necessary in order to truly repent. In doing so the god could give stewardship to someone else, who could be of a different alignment. Bhall could give the precept of fire to Brigit, but the other evil gods' archangels are just as evil as they are so they would have to find someone else, someone might not have the best interests of the precept at heart, maybe even a mortal. Although Cernunnos was a loyal servant of Succelus, the sphere of Nature was significantly changed when it got a new god. It is more violent than it used to be, perhaps because Cernunnos was left rather disillusioned when Agares killed his son, and since he has seen the evils he would be capable of were he to fall (since Hyborem is a duplicate of him). Plus, he never was as patient as his maker.
The Fire sphere used to be very hard to manipulate since Bhall and all angels of fire were supremely good, but since she fell and many of her angels did not the sphere doesn't have much allegiance to an alignment. It is frequently still used for good, although in such cases it can get out of control and lead to evil. Some might argue that Bhall's unwillingness to kill Brigit means that there is still some god in the goddess, which may better explain the ability of fire to still be used for good better than just having some non-evil agels of fire would.
Although their god was evil, in the Age of Magic the Frost Speakers (Mulcarn's disciples) were not seen as a threat, and were tolerated even my most good nations (every one but the Bannor I'd guess). The White Hand was significantly less evil than the Octopus Overlords or the Cuncil of Esus, probably closer to the Fellowship of the Leaves in alignment (although these faiths probably did no get along very well).
I would agree with Sirona that evil gods can be redeemed, but think it would be very hard and that things could never again be exactly as they used to be. I also tend to think that since the gods originally fell due largely to being too attached to their own power, that willingly surrendering the precept may be necessary in order to truly repent. In doing so the god could give stewardship to someone else, who could be of a different alignment. Bhall could give the precept of fire to Brigit, but the other evil gods' archangels are just as evil as they are so they would have to find someone else, someone might not have the best interests of the precept at heart, maybe even a mortal. Although Cernunnos was a loyal servant of Succelus, the sphere of Nature was significantly changed when it got a new god. It is more violent than it used to be, perhaps because Cernunnos was left rather disillusioned when Agares killed his son, and since he has seen the evils he would be capable of were he to fall (since Hyborem is a duplicate of him). Plus, he never was as patient as his maker.
The Fire sphere used to be very hard to manipulate since Bhall and all angels of fire were supremely good, but since she fell and many of her angels did not the sphere doesn't have much allegiance to an alignment. It is frequently still used for good, although in such cases it can get out of control and lead to evil. Some might argue that Bhall's unwillingness to kill Brigit means that there is still some god in the goddess, which may better explain the ability of fire to still be used for good better than just having some non-evil agels of fire would.
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