The Mongol Horde: An Early Conquest Succession Game

[Peaster]

I don't like the odds much at Trondheim, with 2 defs. Hladir is size 2, which means we can raze it, but not take it. Of course, it might grow before our flot gets there (or a Trondheim def may leave).
One bright spot I hadn't noticed is the flot at 47,31 with two ellies. It can chain up thru Salamis towards Kaupang, and this seems faster than an Aleppo flot. (I think Magic G suggested something like this long ago, but we didn't have good map info then, and didn't have Salamis either). If we do that, the same boat can probably ferry the other ellies over, from the Hladir region to Kaupang, for a combined attack. Even if this succeeds, another flot from Aleppo (perhaps with dips and/or a settler) might make sense, to help finish this unfortunate campaign.

I guess the boat+ellie at (72,38) could also be used on the Viks. So there are options, and I leave it to the next player to plan a solid Vik campaign. But I suggest getting 3-4 ellies to Kaupang asap.

The barbs are annoying right now, when we need gold for RBing elsewhere. I might just rely on the Ulundi ellie and a pikeman at/near Cremona, and hope for the best. With luck, the barbs will "wander", rather than attack in mass, and we can pick them off one-by-one. A boat (with an ellie or dip) in this area would help. Losing Cremona would not be a disaster.

Who's up?

 

[Magic_gorter]

I think haleewud is next...and then Prof. Garfield

 

[Jokemaster]

I guess the boat+ellie at (72,38) could also be used on the Viks

I was planning to use it against China, but that is an option too. We can rush vet eles at Tsingato anyways, to take care of Beijing or if the ROme invasion force does not make it in one piece. We might attack Kaupang with 3 eles (2 vets). But I would add another ele in there just to be safe, as the city is on a river. The (72, 38) boat can pick up an ele from Xinjian, which will build one next turn. That 4-ellie force can arrive at Kaupang at 1 AD. But with that, sending anymore than 4 ellies from the Aleppo would be useless (and even 4 would be a bit overkill, but safe and will be attained next turn anyways)


So... with much said, I think we need to resume the trail of actions needed right now... will do so this afternoon.


EDIT:

Carths: I think Shangtu should build another boat (or have the original Shangtu boat head home to pick up the units that were busy fighting Barbs, but that could delay shipping of units in Carthage, even if we won't be able to attack anyway. That way, the new troops, if they have not died fighting Barbs, should arrive at 200 AD ish having healed from sleeping aboard the boat) Also rush lots of eles at our Carth outposts after 5ish turns (or when we have enough gold. I would prefer 5-6 of them AT LEAST, 7-8 is better if we want to finish quicker)

Barbs: My idea is to switch Issos production to Horsemen (built next turn) and gamble that it can defeat the last archer. If that fails, build a horsemen (or rush an ele) in Ulundi. Our Ulundi ele should kill the wounded barb archer and we would have the Ulundi ele go back to Khorasan in 3 turns with 2/3 strength to attack the barb horsemen that would be near the city. Not sure if he'd have enough health to hold them off for long, but would provide us with enough time to build up defences at Khorasan (read: rushed ele, as they could be used later against the Carths) (Also, the turn estimate is if our ele does not kill the wounded barb archer, if not would take 2 turns but leave Ulundi in danger) Meanwhile, rush a piker in Cremona this turn and fortify on mountains.

Vikes: Peaster’s two-pronged plan looks good to me. The (47, 31) boat can head to Kaupang and the (72, 38) can head there too, picking up a Xinjian ele along the way (built next turn) Our 4 eles should be ready to attack the capitol, with 4 eles (2 vets) at 1 AD. A vet ele from Bokhara can also embark at (31, 13) and head west next turn to attack Uppsala, and later Trondheim (when our other flot will have arrived, probably, but not that needed) arriving in Uppsala at 50 AD to combine with our flot at (0, 2) that would have meanwhile solved the Hladir problem. 8 eles should be enough.

Romans: If we choose to not stop to heal our vet eles a hp (what I’d recommend) we should be ready to attack Rome at 150 BC. Prepare a dip in Rome to bribe Antium, as our ellies should beeline to China IMO, and Antium would be too much of a detour.

Spain: I think a late-swarm from our homeland should be enough to take Madrid, then Séville (or reverse order if we don't want to travel partly by land) Bribe Toledo afterwards. (50, 24) (45, 29) (39, 27) and (33, 27) boats can be used to transport our troops to the backdoor of Spain.

China: Not much we can do until the Rome ellies arrive. Build dips everywhere and ellies at Tsingato, don’t rush unless absolutely needed.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Regarding the Vikings, I'm inclined to take a risk with the two elephants on the (0,2) trireme. Trondheim is currently defended by 2 units, one of which is a warrior. I'm inclined to attack the city with those 2 elephants and see what happens. The city is currently building Colossus, so the chances of getting extra defenders are low (but if it does, I'd call off the attack). If we park the elephants on the road between Trondheim and Uppsala, we can attack, and hope that one of the elephants has movement left to take the city once the defenders are beaten, and take the city immediately.

In the event that we can't take the city, counter attack could come from a new unit inside Trondheim if the city abandon's the Colossus, a 2/3 attack strength horseman from Uppsala against elephants on hills, or a stray unit outside Trondheim.

If we succeed, we gain a size 2 city with 3 mines, which could produce elephants locally, and probably incapacitate the Vikings. If we fail, we have to send two more elephants along with our main attack force (which shouldn't delay things too much more than they would otherwise be), with the partial compensation that a couple cities will stop paying shield support for the lost units.

In fact, at the cost of some extra time, we could attack Uppsala and hope to get vet status. If the city is only defended by one unit, the attacker could get healed while razing the city. Unfortunately, there is a risk because if the city has two defenders, our elephants would get wounded and have to take time to heal (although they could then just wait around in the boat as was the original plan.

 

[Peaster]

IMO attacking Trondheim is not clearly bad. I agree about 2 of Prof G's new points; that by attacking on roads we do have pretty good odds of taking the city in a one-turn attack [if there are no surprises first]. And 2) that even with failure we may still take Kaupang using existing flots from the S and SW. So, I don't really object to the plan.

I'd prefer to focus on Kaupang, and take it down as soon and as surely as possible. Generally, EC is quick and easy after the capital falls, mainly via bribery [plus attacks by ellies, to reduce costs]. In this setting, we'll probably have enough boats in the region to do this efficiently. We may need a few dips from a back-up Aleppo flot, or from Kaupang itself. We may need to move ellies back from Kaupang to Trondheim, if that city is too large to bribe.

How does taking Trondheim first affect this overall plan ? If we need to move the Trondheim ellies on to Kaupang [or build more while those heal], this seems to slow the plan down IMO. If the attack goes bad [unexpected units in the way, or waiting to attack our landers, or to join the Trondheim defense; bad luck in combat, attacks at sea ...] can we still take Kaupang fairly quickly ? Maybe, but then we MUST commit 3-4 ellies to Kau now (eg the ones near Salamis and China).

I guess it boils down to that for me ... if we can be sure of taking Kaupang soon without these 2 ellies, then we can afford to go for Trondheim first. Bypassing Tro would give better odds at Kau, or allow us to send one less flot, at the cost of "going back" to Tro later.

IMO haleewud can work this stuff out, planning to have enough attackers eventually for all the fronts. To me, the Viks are critical now, and it seems ok to send all nearby flots there, even the one near Aleppo. But he may decide that's overkill, and he needs units elsewhere. So, probably the Trondheim decision can fall out of that.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Since we don't have blackclicking (because of the massive continent 1), I have no idea how far the "China trireme" is from the Vikings. It might be able to travel on the north shore of continent 10 and then make it to the peninsula south of the Vikings, but I wouldn't bet on it, particularly with a 50% chance of losing the trireme if the jump is more than 3 spaces. Going the safe route (i.e. going back towards Shanghai before moving on to the Vikings) would put that trireme 1 turn behind our other loaded trireme. Without rushbuilding, I think we could have 2 more elephants that way 5 or 6 turns later, or 2-3 turns later with some rushbuilding.

I don't think that losing the 2 elephants currently near vikingland would delay the conquest of the vikings long enough to affect our end date, since we still have to raise forces to conquer the other nations. In particular, getting forces to Carthage is currently quite difficult, unless we resort to large quantities of rushbuilding in Crete and Turin (and if we do, I'd put barracks there to at least get Veterans for our money). On the other hand, capturing Trondheim would greatly reduce the number of elephants we have to send that way, allowing us to build fewer triremes and focus our energies to producing units to conquer those closer to home.

 

[haleewud]

I looked over the map and some of the advice. There are a lot of Barbs between Khorasan and Cremona. They will require some attention. Aleppo seems awfully far away from the Vikings to be of much use. Ship chaining through Salamis seems much better. BTW, I had most of my turns done yesterday, so today's comments did not really factor into my play decisions.

250 BC (turn 0) Rush 10s in Khorasan for 25g. I notice that there are 2 archers in Tsingtao, I move them out toward Beijing.

Interturn: Barbs move toward our cities. Chinese change to Republic, Carths develop Polytheism. Xinjian falls into civil disorder. I have not had much experience with the black hats. Xinjian was size 2, it completed an Ele and apparently having the ele and pike in the city somehow negates the HG effect. Math is chosen for research

225 BC (turn 1) Pikeman built in Khorasan, moves into forest (next to barb horse). Bokhara builds Ele, moves along river and road toward Karakorum (joining new Vike force). Diplomat moves near Turin, encounters Greek Chariot on move 2. Trireme attacks the chariot and kills it but goes deep into the red. Xinjian Ele moves toward Tsingtao. Vet ele (from ship) lands near Tsingtao and with ZOC help moves to fortress near Beijing. Archers move next to Beijing and fortify. Lisbon is founded at 11,29. Warrior boards ship near Toledo (with Ele and heads NW). Align ships for ship chain toward Salamis and the Vikes. Kashgar ship with 2 eles moves toward Kerman (going to Vikes). RB 12 sh for 31g in Cremona and 13sh for 34g in Shangtu. Gold seems to be the most important thing right now. T/L/S of 7/2/1 increases gold income from 60 to 65 (only 1 beaker is being generated, but science not important at this time).

Interturn: Barb horse attacks and dies to Khorasan pike (deep read, vet), others continue to move toward our cities. Barb horse next to Cremona. Spanish develop Mysticism. Spanish sneak attack near Toledo, one warrior survives 2 attacks but dies to a Legion attack. Order restored in Xinjian.

200 BC (turn 2) Pike in Shangtu moves into forest next to Barb horse. Cremona pike fortifies. Ship heading NW moves back toward Toledo. Bokhara Ele boards ship near Karakorum. Ship move slightly off path to pickup Ele built in Khanbalyk. Kashgar ship moves through Kerman. Change Karakorum to Trireme (for ship chain to Vikes), Kashgar to Dip (also destined for Vikes). Vet Ele (in fortress near Beijing) heals. RB Nanking 8sh for 19g.

Interturn: Vikings nearly complete the Colossus. Shangtu and Cremona pikes survive horse attacks.

175 BC (turn 3): Kashgar build Dip, moves to Karakorum. Nanking builds Ele, moves toward Tsingtao. Shangtu warrior moves toward barbs. Cremona pike heals. Ship chain (with 2 eles) reaches Salamis. Hut -> horseman

Interturn: Trondheim builds Colossus, Carths change to Lighthouse. Black hats get me again as Quinsay grows to size 3 and falls into disorder, elvis to the rescue.

150 BC (turn 4) Kazan builds settler. Nishapur builds Ele, moves to Karakorum. Karakorum builds Trireme. Trireme (with dip and Ele) moves toward Salamis. With 2 ele (1 vet), 2 archers (1 vet) in position and a horse in Tsingtao, I decide to be bold and attack Beijing. Vet Ele goes red but kills Phalanx, Non-vet Ele goes deep red but kills 2nd phalanx, Vet Archer kills warrior, 2nd Archer captures Beijing gets 97g. 2 Elvii are hired to keep the people happy. Ele attacks Uppsala and kills legion, 2nd ele destroys Uppsala. Ele lands near Toledo and goes deep red but kills legion (gets vet), warrior destroys Toledo (one phalanx next to Toledo disappears). Spanish ask for cease-fire, since I am not ready for the final push, I agree, they ask for peace, I decline, then they offer 200g for peace, I can't pass that up and sign the treaty. RBs Kerman 5sh, Turin 1sh, Crete 5sh, Lisbon 11sh, Bokhara 5sh, Ulundi 10sh. With ample gold, I switch T/L/S back to 3/0/7.

Interturn: Romans develop CB.

125 BC (turn 5) Kabul builds Ele, heads toward Spanish. Pop Hut 50g. Demand tribute from Romans (hoping for war), they give 25g. Attack Rome anyway 2 Ele kill the defenders and the 3rd destroys Rome (not sure that was in the plan, but what else could I do). Undamaged ele (Vike force) moves into Mountain (road) near former Uppsala and encounters 2 Vike units (phalanx + 1) Vikings ask for cease-fire, I agree (hoping they won't attack the ele). Damaged ele heals. Horse moves from Tsingtao to buffalo near Canton (finds fortress, road and irrigation) Chinese ask for cease-fire, I decline. 2 settlers are mining separate squares in front of Canton, phalanx + 1 are on Mountain between Beijing and Tsingtao. Damaged units move into Beijing to begin healing. 'Toledo' ele heals. Ship chain near Salamis sees Vike Dip. Third ship (Ele + Dip) moves next to Salamis. Basra Warrior and Tabriz Settler board trireme and move toward Vikes. RB Cremona 13sh+10sh, Khanbalyk 5sh, Lisbon 7sh, hire elvis in Kerman (food box is full). Switch T/L/S to 4/0/6 to slow progress.

Interturn: Pike near Shangtu survives 2 horse attacks. Pike near Cremona survives horse attack.

100 BC (turn 6) Cremona build Dip. Cunaxa builds settler, moves east. Ulundi builds ele, moves to Shangtu. WLTKD in Kerman. WLTKD ends in Quinsay (trireme is built). Vike dip is expelled near Salamis. Bribe barb Legion for 82g. RB Xinjian 4sh+10sh.

Interturn: Pike near Cremona survives horse attack (I think the barbs are finally gone). Vikings develop Math. Greeks land (phalanx and settler) near Turin.

75 BC (turn 7) Issos build settler, moves west. WLTKD in Quinsay. Xinjian build Dip, moves toward Tsingtao. WLTKD in Tsingtao. Bribe Greek phalanx for 119g (didn't really want to, but I have no troops yet). T/L/S to 7/2/1 to make sure we don't develop Math.

Interturn: Chinese government is overthown.

50 BC (turn 8) Lisbon build trireme, with Ele already in the city, the black hats get me again, civil disorder, Naples builds ele, moves toward Romans. Bokhara builds Ele, moves toward Spanish. Nanking WLTKD. Land near Kaupang, contact Vikes and demand tribute, WAR. 4 eles attacking, 1 Vet ele dies but 1 vet and 1 non-vet kill the 2 defenders. Kaupang captured (12g + Math + Barracks). Move an ele next to Veies (Roman), it is size 3. I attack and the ele dies to the defending phalanx (Oops). Horse kills warrior near Veies. 2 ele board ship in Lisbon and head south. RB Beijing 5sh. T/L/S to 3/0/7.

Interturn: Ele (in mountain near Trondheim) survives warrior attack (gets Vet), catapult appears next to the ele. Spanish warn about being to close to Valencia (size 1). Chinese switch to Monarchy. Carths nearly finished with LH.

25 BC: (turn 9) Order restored in Lisbon. Philosophy chosen to replace Math (5 other choices available). Philosophy is discovered, I chose Monotheism as the free tech (5 other choices available). Choices for next advance are Astro, BrdgBld, Chiv, Inv, Med, Theo and Univ, not really sure which is best, I chose Invention (probably should have picked Theo). WLTKD ends in Nanking. Salamis builds pike, moves toward Spanish. Aleppo and Ormuz build eles, Kashgar builds Dip, all move toward Spanish. Khanbalyk builts ele, it boards a trireme. Viking trireme found south of Kaupang, I attack it with a trireme and my trireme, but Vike in deep red. Attack with second trireme, Vike dies. Ele in mountain south of Trondheim withdraws to hills, hoping to avoid catapult attack.

Interturn: Spanish demand withdrawal from Valencia, I renounce the treaty, WAR. Several warriors are attacked, all survive, 1 vet. Carthage builds LH, Carth settler next to Crete.

1 AD (turn 10) Crete and Turin build Crusaders. WLTKD in Naples. Kerman builds Crusader, WLTKD ends, Crux moves toward Quinsay. WLTKD in Khorasan. Basra builds Crusader, it boards trireme. Tabriz build trireme. Shanghai builds settler. Beijing builds Dip. WLTKD in Karakorum. Ships (with 2 Crux moves toward Madrid). Hamburg is founded at 18,14. Pop Hut for 50g. Land Ele near Hladir (size 4, not size 2). Ele kills Archer. Dip bribes now size-3 Hladir for 174g (22g, barracks and phalanx). Vikings ask for cease-fire, I decline, then they offer 50g, so I accept. They realise the cease-fire is worthless (our reputation is atrocious). Eles near Trondheim board trireme. Crete Crux kills Greek settler. 2 warriors land north of Valencia and find Cordoba at 48,8.

Final Thoughts:
The elephants on the ship near Hladir can be moved into Hladir with proper use of the ships on either side of Hladir. Once there they can heal in 1 turn (barracks). With six Elephants (four vets), Trondheim should fall, so it may be preferrable for Hladit to build a diplomat to bribe Aarhus once it is found. All 4 Spanish cities have been located. 3 of the 4 Romans cities are visible (Neapolis is still hidden). The Chinese are down to the single city of Canton. I am pretty sure that the phalanx in the mountains is covering a settler. So Canton is supporting 3 settlers, 1 phalanx and whatever garrsion is left. We should probably try to make sure we don't destroy the city since it contains the pyramids. All 5 Carth cities are visible on the map.

 

[Jokemaster]

Romans: We urgently need dips agains them. If our Eles will not get a place to heal, this will be bad... scorched earth campaigns are not good.

I would set the TLS rate back at 3.0.7 ASAP. Would give us 66g revenue per turn.

I don't like how the Carth campaign is shaping up at all. We need to act fast. However, Carthage is defended by lone Phalanx forted on a river... with a ship at (6, 40) arriving soon with 2 eles I think we can take the city in 4 turns. Hopefully they don't build a second defender in there. For the rest of the cities however... dips or crusaders? The carth capitol may be doomed, but they have a lot of gold...

 

[Prof. Garfield]

4 turns to attack Carthage? I'm planning on disbanding the Phalanx in Turin, rushing a crusader and attacking with 2 crusaders next turn.

I think haleewud accomplished much more than I would have during his turns. My turns are going to focus on how many resources must be used to attack Carthage and Rome, and getting those resources where they are needed. At the moment, we also have to find the last Roman City.

 

[Peaster]

I'm a bit rushed for a couple days, but the AD 1 save looks good. Great progress vs the Viks, Barbs and Chinese! (though the attack on Beijing seemed risky/lucky to me, just from reading it quickly) and good work wrt tribute. Minor quibbles = 1) keep taxes maxed; there isn't much need for science anymore, 2) not much progress vs Carthage. But that may be unfair; I haven't really analyzed the turnset properly yet.

The most critical issue now is probably the missing Roman city [or maybe the Carthage campaign; not quite sure which]. I assume people are collecting "nearest city" info, but not getting anything ? This is one likely way to find the last Roman city, unless it is deep in the south. The main alternative is to cease fire, be nice, and try to get their map. For that reason, I prefer to keep a decent rep. Haven't complained about that so far because it usually doesn't matter much (at least in my games), especially with restarts off, and maybe we can still do it. Third best alternative is sending out explorers (a secondary reason for seafaring).

Not sure what to recommend about that (all 3 alternatives require some advance planning). Maybe:

1) Did anyone trade maps with the Romans recently, and save the turn, or make notes ? A settler south of Antium, for example, would be a clue to look there.

2) There is an exploit for finding missing cities, involving left-clicking, but I'm not sure it is legal.

3) We can try cease-fire + map trade; not much to lose.

4) Send most of the troops near Beijing South and/or West to explore and/or take Cumae (we can probably bribe Canton with 1 dip + 1 archer). If the Roman ellies can take Antium, then they can also explore (leave Veies to others).

5) 1-2 boats south of the Romans would be useful for nearest city info and dip transportation, but I don't see a fast way to do that now. Maybe after bribing Canton, we can rush a boat there. Or Beijing could build a settler, which makes a port which makes a boat. Or ... to finish the Carths, we'll probably need to build more boats and dips, to bribe their last cities. As a last resort, some of those units could be diverted east to help find and bribe the missing Romans.

Note for "next time": finding missing cities can be rather slow, so plan ahead !

 

[Jokemaster]

We can try cease-fire + map trade; not much to lose.

I would recommend this. The Romans are uncooperative: I think them offering a cease-fire is likely. We can then gift enough so we'd get their map. Try to get the Viking map while you're at it.

Hladir has barracks, but it probably won't come in play vet-wise. Same with Kaupang. Perhaps we should sell when the Eles there and nearby will have healed?

There's a piker in Xinjian that we can disband for something else. Maybe a dip to bribe Canton.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

As he searched through the last four years of General Zabrit’s diplomacy reports, Urlog reflected on the chain of events that had made this search necessary.

Upon receiving the report on the late Khan’s demise, Urlog, as third in command of the Viking Campaign was send back to Karakorum to represent General Zabrit before Garfield Khan. He remembered the strategy meetings with the other commanders and sub-commanders of the different regions; the new Khan had devised a strategy to incapacitate resistance by using the superior Mongol Crusaders to crush Madrid and Carthage in relatively short order. The last Chinese city would be stolen by an elite group of thieves for a moderate price, allowing the troops allocated to the area to be sent to Rome to find (and crush) all remaining pockets of resistance.

Urlog was to return to the land of the Vikings with the following instructions: take Trondheim and, when satisfied all resistance had given up, disband the military in the region to get gold to fund other campaigns. Several of the commanders present expressed concern that Zabrit enjoyed wine to the point of being able to compromise his effectiveness as a general, but Garfield Khan dismissed these concerns by claiming that all the General had to do was take Trondheim and disband the military, and that he had shown prowess at the former task, and any idiot could do the latter.

So Urlog had returned to the land of the Vikings and devised plans to attack Trondheim. In the meantime, they received reports about difficulties that Crusader teams had attacking across the rivers near Madrid and Carthage, but there were no such rivers near Trondheim, so the attack was made a short time later.

The attack was made on the massive city, and it succeeded very nicely. Unfortunately, after the attack, the soldiers dispersed into the half empty city, and the officers spent the next three weeks searching for them; disbandment wasn’t supposed to happen quite so soon. Unfortunately, the building in which they had established their headquarters burned down while the General was out in the town, and Urlog and some other officers spent the next week looking for him. He was finally found passed out under the Colossus with his clothing covered in wine stains. At their new headquarters, this time in a stone building, the General explained that a messenger from Marco Polo’s Embassy had met him the night before to bring tidings of the destruction of the Vikings. Urlog was concerned by this pronouncement, because no one else had seen the messenger, and the General had no official paper on him. On the other hand, the city was in chaos, and it just might have happened that an envoy would run into the General and then get distracted by one of the locals; pickpockets could explain the disappearance of the paper. So Urlog eventually put the matter out of his mind.

Several years had passed, and now Urlog had received reports of Viking archers south of Hladir. He confronted Zabrit, who denied the possibility, stating that he had received word from Marco Polo’s Embassy that the Vikings were destroyed over 3 years ago, and had since received no reports to the contrary.

As yet, Urlog had not found any reports on the Vikings. He was about to give up, when he happened to notice that Zabrit had not discarded the diplomatic report bags. He opened one and found, tucked in the bottom, a report on the Vikings. Another bag—another report. Urlog had a suspicion that Zabrit had not noticed these simply because he wasn’t looking for them. Still, he had trouble believing this could have happened. Zabrit was a dead man, but who knew how much this would shake up the Mongol Empire?


Planning:
Carthage:
Take Carthage in about 2 turns (rushing a crusader to do so). Send 2 units to Malaca and two to Caralis. Survivors join up and march on Panormus. In the event of disaster, Carthage crusaders should be healed up by that time. Will bribe Utica.

Chinese:
Will bribe Canton for approximately 250g, will get roughly half that back in selling the walls and from plunder, not to mention a couple settlers. Elephants (and diplomat) in the area can be put to attacking the Romans and especially finding their undiscovered city.

Romans:
Find and crush cities, bribe if diplomat finds a city and treasury permits. Send in units from China, which will hopefully be sufficient.

Vikings:
Take Trondheim, then sell off everything of value to get cash for Carthage campaign. Probably disband elephants and triremes (to build barracks to sell), since they can’t get anywhere but Spain in a timely manner, and we have plenty of production near Spain.

Spanish:
Crush Spain with crusaders produced in homeland. Diversion of resources from homeland to other areas will be minimal, since movement will take too long.

(0) AD 1: Sell Beijing marketplace. Change production around; cities with 0 shields start producing barracks (especially if out of the way) so that we’ll have a little extra bribery gold. All trireme production is cancelled (except for one) because I think those we have will be sufficient for our purposes. At 70% taxes, 20% luxuries, income is 87, expenses are 5g. Disband Phalanx and rush Crusader in Turin. Put elephant off near Madrid; unfortunately crusader doesn’t have movement points this turn. Treasury stands at 319g.

(1) AD 20: Disorder in Cannae (city growth). Attack Madrid: elephant barely survives attacking archer; tired crusader loses to archer. Warrior attacks Cordoba to see what defends it; it was a warrior, so attack with the second warrior, but just barely loses (enemy probably gained vet status). BREAKTHROUGH: Nearest city info states that elephant within Beijing city radius is actually nearest Neopolis.

(2) AD 40: Elephant outside Madrid killed. Verone disorder (2 units inside city). Samarkand disorder (city growth). Full strength crusader dies attacking archers in Madrid; will have to bring in vets. Crusader attacking Carthage demolished by Phalanx (barely any damage); will have to reconsider strategy. Nearest city info from elephant that used to be close to Neapolis now says it’s close to Pompeii. Incite revolt in Canton for 224g, 51 plundered (forgot to check how much was in their treasury). Get 2 settlers, a phalanx and an archer. Chinese destroyed. Sell off walls. Build Prague. Break Cease-fire (which I forgot we had) with Vikings in order to attack Trondheim. Take Trondheim, Colossus, 18g, Vikings destroyed. Sell the 3 Barracks in vikingland.
Do the homework I should have done two turns ago. With fortification, city defence, veteran and river bonuses phalanxes and archers defend at a little over 10. New plan for Carthage will be to get a barracks up and running and rush a couple catapults. Will fortify pikemen beside Madrid in the hope of getting the archer to weaken itself attacking them, then charge in with Crusaders, or, if the archer doesn’t attack, bring in a vet catapult.

(3) Accidentally hit enter and was unable to do any rushing, though I don’t think there was anything too bad besides being unable to switch to barracks in Turin. There is a legion in Valencia, which killed an elephant. Elephant attacking Veies is just barely killed by phalanx. Raze Veies with another elephant, which at least gets healed and plunders 5 gold. Reveal Neapolis. Income is currently at 96g; have over 600 in treasury, will have to start spending it. Cumae is at size 4. Hut gives INVENTION. Shangtu produces last trireme. Disband elephant in Hladir. Rush trireme from 8s in Turin. Build Salzburg. No longer have intelligence about the number of units in Madrid. Treasury at 505g.

(4) Disorder in Capoue (unit production). Begin Gunpowder even though it won’t make a difference. Hladir builds temple, which is immediately sold. Pompeii destroyed. Carthaginian trireme makes life difficult (unload two crusaders in case it attacks trireme). Build Bergen. Disband trireme in Trondheim. Income down to 86; I think cities going in and out of WLTKD is messing with income numbers.

(5) Spanish Chariot kills elephant (and diplomat) on mountain outside Seville. Now an archer inside Carthage, which kills Crusader beside the city (that had killed an elephant). Carthaginian trireme dies attacking one of our triremes, but another one appears. Disorder in Cremona. Trondheim builds and sells barracks. Rush barracks in Turin. Crusader beats legion becomes vet. Will leave it north of Carthage, since I don’t think the boat that was carrying it will survive much longer. Will use that boat as a wall, so that the other boat can get through. Take Antium, 15g. Bribe Roman warrior, so that I can move elephant nearer Neaplois. Horseman attack reveals Neapolis is defended by a phalanx. There is a Viking archer south of Hladir???!!! I must have imagined the report of the Vikings’ demise, having been expecting it. What’s more, I didn’t even notice that they were still in the foreign affairs window, despite having accessed it several times. Come across Viking settler west of Trondheim. Vikings: no cease fire. Destroy settlers.

Well, 2 out of five campaigns went nicely. Chinese are gone and Romans currently have no undiscovered cities. The Vikings were just embarrassing; I really don’t know where my mind was. The Quinsay trireme is closest to Aarhus. For the Carthaginians, I suggest picking off some other cities while we amass what is needed to take Carthage. I’ve already rushed a Barracks in Turin, so we can get some vets. I’ve been fortifying units beside Madrid in an effort to get them to waste health attacking (or to provide cover for catapults if we use them). There are elephants in a boat near Cordoba that could be used to take the city.

 

[Peaster]

luvd ur log urlog!

Good progress this turnset with the Chinese and Romans and finances. I didn't understand what happened with the Viks, but it seems to have turned out OK. It is pretty obvious where to look for Aarhus (check the worker screen in Hladir!), and we can probably take that city in a turn or two.

I'm not too worried about Spain, but our units don't seem very well-coordinated there. Some general-principles-comments on that; 1) we have many more warriors and pikemen than we need, but we lack dips and crusaders. 2) The plan for the ellies on the boat at (44,61) is unclear; they cannot easily attack Cordoba, given the terrain nearby [landing on hills leaves them exposed to attack for one turn, so landing on the tundra is better - IF they can get there. But 1 dip would work as well as 2 ellies for that route]. 3) Likewise, I don't see a plan for using the ellie at (42,14) because of ZOC. And the swarm of warriors at Valencia has no clear attacking value. 4) So I don't really see a clear plan in motion to take ANY Spanish cities yet.

On the other hand, this arena is still less urgent than Carthage; and we do have plenty of cities and flots in the area. I might switch Aleppo production to a boat, and try to put a dip on it for Valencia [or even Cordoba]. Mainly, the next player just needs to make an inexpensive plan for Spain, and I'm sure that it will work out OK.

So, that leaves Carthage. I can't tell from the log how many units were involved in the failed attack. It sounds like the attack may have been premature, with only two attackers, and/or we had quite bad luck (?). Anyway, that is clearly our critical civ now. I suggest RBing 2 crux from our 2 outposts asap, and attacking Carthage with 5 units (ellie/crux, not cat), vets going first. Five might be slight overkill, but trying with three (one wounded) vs two defenders on a river seems too risky, and if we have attackers left over, they can move on to other arenas quickly.

Ferry the dip over from (25,49) and if possible bribe Caralis soon after Carth falls. Make more dips asap, maybe another boat, maybe another vet crux. The barracks in Turin will probably only produce one useful vet for us, so that may be a slight waste, but not very serious. I'm a bit concerned that the Carth trireme may sink our loaded trireme at (16,54) (it seems the AI likes to attack stacks). I recommend unloading those 2 ellies to (15,55) and/or (14,56) before ending this turn. I'd send the boat at 7,35 south, to pick up 1-2 RB'd dips at Crete, destination Utica and/or Panormus. I'm guessing Panormus will be last city to fall to the Mongols, so finding some plan to take it within about 10 turns would be quite helpful.

Finances: I agree with comments above, would also suggest conservative spending on bribes etc until the smoke clears around Carthage. Exceptions = RBs in the 2 Carth outposts. For example, we can probably take down the Viks, Romans and most of Spain without bribes or many RBs. We'll probably spend our last coins on bribing misc Carth cities, maybe 1-2 Spanish ones.

Despite some twists and turns, we are on track to finish by approx 300AD, which IMO is pretty darn good at Diety.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

The Carthage maneuvers went like this:

Two Crusaders went by trireme to attack Carthage. One attacked and was killed with minimal damage to the Phalanx, so I called off the attack and picked up another crusader. The trireme was sailing towards the smaller eastern cities when it came upon a Carthaginian trireme. It unloaded the crusaders it was carrying in case the trireme was destroyed (with the Carts having lighthouse, odds of vet status were pretty good). One crusader noticed an elephant, and destroyed it, but that left it beside Carthage, and it got attacked by an archer. The trireme in question is now blocking the way for another Cart trireme which will hopefully attack it instead of the trireme behind it.

I rushed the barracks because I count 4 x1.5 bonuses for defending units in Carthage: fortification bonus, city defense bonus, river bonus, vet bonus. Applied to a 2 defense unit, these bring its defense to about 10; I figured we could use several vet crusaders (or catapults, though with the archer there now, that doesn't look like such a good idea).

Regarding Cordoba, it was only defended by a warrior a few turns ago. But, if you are worried about a new unit having been produced, sail around the peninsula; the water square just above Cordoba is listed as "1" so we can get there to unload on the tundra and attack.

Valencia has a legion in it, so I suggest bribing the city.

 

[haleewud]

I am not sure what happened with the vikings either. At the end of my log, I did include a note that mentioned Aarhus (an how it should be bribed when found). Maybe I should have high-lighted it better.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Oh, I know what happened with the Vikings: I was careless. I just have trouble believing how careless I was, in particular because I opened the foreign affairs window several times later to check on the Romans and never noticed that the Vikings were still there.

 

[Magic_gorter]

I will play as soon as I have time. Might be this evening but I'm not sure.

 

[Peaster]

I rushed the barracks because I count 4 x1.5 bonuses for defending units in Carthage: fortification bonus, city defense bonus, river bonus, vet bonus. Applied to a 2 defense unit, these bring its defense to about 10; I figured we could use several vet crusaders (or catapults, though with the archer there now, that doesn't look like such a good idea).

Regarding Cordoba, it was only defended by a warrior a few turns ago. But, if you are worried about a new unit having been produced, sail around the peninsula; the water square just above Cordoba is listed as "1" so we can get there to unload on the tundra and attack.

Valencia has a legion in it, so I suggest bribing the city.

Carthage: I get the river and fortn bonuses; but do you know the defender(s) are vets ? Also, is there a city defense bonus ? If so, I didn't know.

In general, I like the idea of making vets for such an attack - it just seems too late. I'm thinking 2 rookies are worth more than one vet, and we may only get one vet from these barracks. But this isn't very clear.

Cordoba: OK. If there is only one warrior there, then almost any attack plan should be OK (just don't stack the 2 ellies on the same tile!).

Valencia: I agree about bribing, but how ? IIRC there is dip south of town, but can it get into the city safely ? Also, I thought it might be intended for Seville. IMO the safest method is to send a dip on a boat, perhaps from Aleppo. Not sure we are set up for that, but it isn't very urgent.

Anyone see a good plan to get the Carth's gold ? I think that by conquering cities we may get about 50% of it eventually, probably enough. But if they are willing to pay for a cease fire (which we won't honor), then we get much more, and sooner. And I think that reduces the chances of them RBing new defenders. Never tested this theory tho.

Actually, I usually try for a spotless rep, but that's blown, and I don't know any good objective reason for it. It should produce better AI reactions, but I have no evidence that it really works that way.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Carthage: I get the river and fortn bonuses; but do you know the defender(s) are vets ? Also, is there a city defense bonus ? If so, I didn't know.

It seems you are correct that there is no city defense bonus (I ran some tests today, and there doesn't appear to be one). I'm not sure where I got that idea. It's just a hunch that the defenders are vets. They are in the capital, so I would suspect that the cities have barracks, and those units have defeated at least one attacker. A vet phalanx in Carthage would be in line with how little damage it sustained when attacked by my crusader.

 

[Magic_gorter]

I played my turns finally.....

My plans:
Spanish....us diplomat at 39,15 to bribe Valencia. Use crusaders which are near to first conquer Seville and with extra troups which will come from Chinese land conquer Madrid. Cordoba might be captured with the two ellies.

Vikings......try to get map to find last city and bribe or capture it. I suspect last city is near archer.

Romans....bribe Neapolis and use settlers to connect roads to last roman city to attack it with enough attackers (ellies and crusaders).

Carth's are most difficult....use vet crusaders to attack capitol. Extra vet crusaders should be build in Turin. Use wounded trireme to hold of carth trireme to protect our healthy trireme to bring those crusaders to Carth capitol. Try getting some dips to this island for bribing last cities.

Here is the log:

Preturn: RB crusader in Crete (near Turin)

Turn 1 (120 AD) Romans attack warrior (we lose warrior)
Trireme of Carths did not attack
Viking archer gets close to our city.
We have more then 2M people

Bribed Neapolis (got 9 gold) / tried to attack last Roman city with 2 horsemen but it fails. Cease fire with Vikings->peace->gave a few techs->got maps->city is in reach of ellies->captured last Viking city->Vikings destroyed
RB vet crusader in Turin
Moving units to right position for Spanish plan (ellies land near Cordoba. 1 on hill and 1 in forest).

Turn 2 (140 AD) Lost 1 ellie near Cordoba and the other got wounded (red).
Carth's land near Turin
2 crusaders land near Seville and destroy the city. Crusader in Turin kills Carth's. vet crusader and dip goes with trireme to Carth island. Use other trireme to block carth trireme. Dip gets on ship near Valencia. Move ellie away from Cordoba to recover. And other units get near Madrid. Move dips and crusaders near last Roman city

Turn 3 (160 AD) Madrid attacks our pikemen (we win).
Carth trireme attacks the trireme I wanted to be attacked (we win).
Use 2 crusaders to attack Cumae and capture city (19g) Romans are destroyed.
Attack Madrid with a few crusaders (after 3 or 4 attacks we capture city (27g).
Valencia bribed for 114g (21 g).
Move more crusaders near Carthage and move dip near Utica.

Turn 4 (180 AD) Attack Carthage with 2 vet crusaders and 1 vet ellie. 2nd ellie captures city (Lighthouse + 84g).
Move attackers near Cordoba.

Turn 5 (200 AD) Bribe Utica for 305g (got 129g).
Razed Cordoba (21g)->Spanish destroyed.

Only 3 Carth cities left. There are two dips to the north of those cities (1 on trireme and one which can enter trireme next turn). Units are also heading to the last cities.
I guess it should be possible to win within 5 turns.

It's not possible to upload a file at the moment. I will look if I can do it a different way tomorrow.

Did not look much at our production, because it's only about conquering the last cities right now.