The Promise

[Berzerker]

I was driving about and saw a church sign that said true love begins when nothing is expected in return. I found it ironic given the church's existence - and the religion it professes - depends on getting something in return. Whether it be 72 virgins, entry to Valhalla, or eternal life with Jesus as your king, these religions promise a return on our investment.

But according to the sign, true love begins when there is no promise, no expectation of reward. How can we love God if we believe God will reward us? Only the non-believer is capable of true love. Those who "believe" cannot know true love, not if they believe their love might be rewarded. Doing good for goodness sake is true love...

On the other hand

If the religious seek their reward, are they not acting selfishly? Yes, they support a charity but they do so to be rewarded with a pleasant afterlife.
But even the non-believer feels better about themselves when they support charities. Why is that? Is it also selfish to help people because it feels good?

 

[Lohrenswald]

Judaism doesn't promise anything in return IIRC

I'm really kinda interested in that but haven't checked it out :/

 

[Berzerker]

that is noteworthy since Judaism spawned religions that do promise heavenly rewards

but Judaism also has the legend of Enoch (and of course Adam and Eve and the Serpent) walking with God, so in theory a return is possible.

 

[Lohrenswald]

ehm

no?

I mean, I guess maybe, I don't know much about Judaism's theology, but just because you after reading genesis think returning to Eden or whatever is possible, doesn't make that religious canon

 

[Narz]

I was driving about and saw a church sign that said true love begins when nothing is expected in return.

People have been saying that since suckers been falling for it & will continue to spread that message to sheeples everywhere.

Tis better to give AND receive. And God ain't throwing you no "Hey you're dead" party so live your life as YOU want to.

 

[Berzerker]

I suppose Enoch didn't actually die - he walked with God. So he may not have created any belief in an afterlife. I understand Jews dont believe in that but I dont know if they'd deny the possibility either.

 

[warpus]

Any God who really wants to promise me stuff should be smart enough to understand that just having people in 4,000 BC write it in a book isn't going to cut it.

You're gonna need to be a little bit more direct than that, especially in this age of hectic lifestyles and short attention spans, not to mention competing deities all coming out with their own books.

 

[Imrahil91]

When I went to a Christian school, some people said that just living with Jesus in your life and the inner peace and confidence you get with it is reward enough itself, and just waiting for heaven or feeling better than other people because you have the "correct" belief isn't the right path.

I also feel the people proselytizing by promising paradise or babbling about the imminent doomsday are the most annoying to listen to.

 

[Narz]

Any God who really wants to promise me stuff should be smart enough to understand that just having people in 4,000 BC write it in a book isn't going to cut it.

You're gonna need to be a little bit more direct than that, especially in this age of hectic lifestyles and short attention spans, not to mention competing deities all coming out with their own books.

Yeah, where's God's YouTube channel? *braces-self*

 

[PhroX]

Of course, there's another religious implication of true love expecting nothing in return - God expects much from us (belief, obedience etc.), thus he doesn't truly love us....

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yeah, where's God's YouTube channel? *braces-self*

I only have his twitter account: https://twitter.com/stephenfry?lang=en

 

[warpus]

Of course, there's another religious implication of true love expecting nothing in return - God expects much from us (belief, obedience etc.), thus he doesn't truly love us....

Because of the.. implication.

 

[timtofly]

Who says God expects stuff? I am not getting it. God even lets people believe that God does not exist. If God expects stuff, should not everyone be forced to accept what they currently do not?

It is not that hard to love people without expecting anything in return. People are the hardest thing to love, well I guess loving an unknown may be slightly harder. Depending on the demands placed on that unknown, but then loving and demanding are evidently not the same thing.

 

[Berzerker]

but dont we expect our love to be returned?

how long will our 'love' endure if it doesn't pay off somehow?

wasn't that what Job is about?

 

[warpus]

Who says God expects stuff? I am not getting it. God even lets people believe that God does not exist. If God expects stuff, should not everyone be forced to accept what they currently do not?

The Christian God expects stuff from followers, or else they get tortured for all eternity.

If God didn't expect stuff from his followers, why would he have released the 10 commandments you are supposed to follow? If they were suggestions they would be called "The 10 Suggestions" instead

 

[Synobun]

The Christian God expects stuff from followers, or else they get tortured for all eternity.

If God didn't expect stuff from his followers, why would he have released the 10 commandments you are supposed to follow? If they were suggestions they would be called "The 10 Suggestions" instead

It's free will, man. You can choose to be a good boy and enjoy paradise for all eternity, or you can give in to the devil and burn forever.

It's a choice!

 

[Farm Boy]

The covenant of old was washed away with the new covenant of God made flesh, sacrificed for all sins of all times. Your obedience is not necessary, your will is not a factor. God loves you, this is absolute. Being called to love is being called to realize that it is its own reward. The absence of love is its own punishment. So sayeth the Methodist, at any rate. You can qualify your "Christian God" differently if you so desire, but I for one won't recognize it as such. Merely that perhaps you do, and perhaps I'd spare a hope that either your belief makes you happy or that you investigate changing it.

 

[warpus]

Not breaking the law is a choice too. The cops expect you not to break the law, even though you have the choice to do whatever you want.

The covenant of old was washed away
with the new covenant of God made flesh, sacrificed for all sins of all times. Your obedience is not necessary, your will is not a factor.

Awesome, so the 10 commandments are optional now? Christians no longer have to follow them?

 

[Synobun]

The covenant of old was washed away with the new covenant of God made flesh, sacrificed for all sins of all times. Your obedience is not necessary, your will is not a factor. God loves you, this is absolute. Being called to love is being called to realize that it is it's own reward. The absence of love is it's own punishment. So sayeth the Methodist, at any rate. You can qualify your "Christian God" differently if you so desire, but I for one won't recognize it as such.

I don't understand how this can be an implied meaning/state of being when it's very clear that if you don't comply, you burn. It reeks heavily of an alcoholic father beating you senseless and then saying it's because he loves you.

Sure, he might love you... but he's still a chav for doing that to you. Love, no matter how absolute it may be, does not seem like a reasonable justification for committing great harm upon another.

 

[Farm Boy]

The ten commandments seem reasonably solid suggestions most of the time, like maybe killing people isn't a super awesome way to live and pining about all the hotties you aren't banging perhaps won't make you super happy. But God's love isn't conditional upon following them, no.

Methodist theology is not very clear on that, Vin, no.