The Sword of Osman

[FiveRings]

Weaken the research effort? Sorry ... could you explain further?

I think that we have to get Istanbul to do the bulk of our research from now on, and this is to be done by building and maturing Cottages, and popping Great Scientists, the first being for an Academy in Istanbul. At the moment, Istanbul is in a period of significant growth, and has three Cottages being worked up. I envisaged the following shorter-term improvements;

Spoiler :

We can easily build two more Grassland riverside Cottages, Farm that tile that will chain-irrigate fresh water to the Corn once we get Civil Service, and run two Scientists. There's still growth for extra citizens to work the Ivory tiles after that - esp. if we Farm/Plantation the Sugars. When the population gets quite large, we can whip out the Hammam for +2 and +2. As suggested, we could possibly put Cottages on some of the Ivory tiles or the Sugar tiles if we wanted for more .

I see Istanbul continuing to push us toward our military technologies, while the rest of the empire does the 'muscle work' in raising and replenishing our army - at least until we've dealt with Egypt and Greece (and maybe eventually Mongolia?).:

Well, I thought you're implying NOT to run scientists / max research under some circumstances. This seemed questionable to me, as already in the previous save MM had both construction and machinery. Now I see he went for music, but this doesn't mean he mightnot be researching ENG right now... So, even if we fail with the military effort, I wouldn't be inclined to produce less bulbs in Ista till we ourselves get the ENG.
And, let me share an idea here: we might be very interested in trading Theo with him, he's giving right now CURR+SAIL+$10 (his max gold now; Ram is giving us the same techsw but +$20, so we might assume that MM will come up to the amount RAM is willing to give us: checking his proposal and waiting till MM gets to it, or till he stops ameliorating his offer, might be a good idea). The idea is not so much to get the SAIL for the seafood by Kara or the currency, which we might not be able to use efficiently as we need to start pumping those elecats ASAP, but to provide MM with the opportunity to start the Notre Dame and decrease his chances of building HS before we do. The one additional downhill might be that Ram gets the Theo from MM and uses it for +2exp (right now he seems to have nothing very much to offer to MM, but that will change very soon if he's not teching along the same path as MM). Please, share you thoughts on this by this evening; thanks!

With regards to cottages and farms: I agree that the grassland by the river should be farmed if we need it to get later +1f on the corn. However, we have - even without the already set-up farm to the West, which was quite useless effort BTW, just enough food to cover the deficient tiles (iirc that sugar provides at least +1f in addition to the gold). Now I am usually farming the likes of sugar till CAL - when i have the spare workerturns - to boost food and growth. It's this vs clearing jungle and mining around Ed, and clearing and farming around other cities. Please, share your thoughts on this as well; thanks!

All the rest is seconded, and all your thoughts and ideas are very helpful, and very much appreciated, Cam!

Now, a bit on the war effort: we have 45 turns till 1450 when we have to subjugate Alex, and 7 turns - if at 1500 we don't change yearspan of turn, I didn't check that at the time, sorry!, but I think it stays the same or is reduced to 5 years, that gives us 2 additional turns - to subjugate Ram.

What I see is that we are NOT dealing completely with Ram, but rather crippling him so that he has only 1-2 cities left AND turning onto Alex, while returning to Ram again with the new army built during the war with Alex. Even in this case, we have very few turns to build the army for Ram, to conquer whatever we need to, and move over the whole territory and conquer Alex. My guess is, we need to whip elecats as mad, no matter penalty or not. And again, I couldn't make the trick of double-whipping at the higher-cost units, is it possible there? Your thoughts on this are appreciated very much, as the whipping at least will definitely be in my turn, starting some three turns from my taking over...

I am planning to start playing this evening.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Hey guys, haven't looked at the save yet but checked your comments. My 2c, as it were, is as follows: Set all cities to build phants and cats (as soon was we can), and create 2 massive (or as big as we can) armies. I have this very weird feeling that crushing Alex is going to be easier than Ram. On that exact same note, I also have a very strong feeling that phalanxes are on the horizon (like, very closely) and as such, our attack should be quick.

[SALUTATION]

FiveRings, your analysis of the game (and its' mechanics) is very cool. I tend to "shoot from the hip" in my gameplay and, so far, playing with you (and Cam) has made me think a little more about the choices I make when I play. For that, I thank you both.

[/SALUTATION]

Since I haven't really looked at anything yet, that is all I will offer for now. Watch this space, I will soon give an actual opinion...

 

[woopdeedoo]

Ok, so I looked at the save. First off, Cam, F-ing AWESOME job so far. Second, I hate Alex(Toku) (the tool). My ideas:

Set Ista to work hammer heavy tiles, finish the monastary and the start spitting out phants. (whip the mona when we can). Erdine should also focus on hammers and stat spitting out phants. Ankara needs to grow. A LOT! Besh is perfect; but why the farm on dye at Turfan? Wasted worker moves (my opinion, idiotic as it may be).

Besh can start the cats. It will spit them out at about 4~5 turs each. PLUS, we can chop/whip to overflow. Those are my thoughts.. off hand...

 

[Cam_H]

but why the farm on dye at Turfan? Wasted worker moves (my opinion, idiotic as it may be).

Turfan needs food for the miners

Turfan is really food-poor, despite the Rice, and will continue to be until we can chain-irrigate.

By farming the Dye, it takes the city from +2 to +3. This allows us to work mines on both the Plains Hill and the Jungle > Grassland Hill before it stagnates;



Istanbul as our sole science hub

I'd be very careful with whipping Istanbul and taking citizens off those cottages ... this city is the 'brains trust' of the entire empire. Maybe that Monastery's whippable when the city gets to population 10 or 11 where you can whip citizens off the Ivory tiles. Personally I'd keep a focus on growing those cottages. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but I really would like to push our technology development as hard as possible. I think that our trades are going to be limited in this game, and we'll need to do the bulk of our own technology acquisition.

Likewise, its capacity to add to our army might be pretty limited, and whipping should maybe be considered when the population gets up again to that suggested 10 or 11 so we protect the Cottages and the Corn, and ideally still be able to run Scientists (in my view).

Maybe the confusion came from an earlier suggestion on 'binary research' ... before building a Library, horde (0%) ... when the Library's built, then maximise (100%) / 'deficit research' so we get the benefit of the +25% from the Library (?).

Sailing and WFYABTA

I would not take Sailing in a deal. For the reasons outlined earlier, we have already got to WFYABTA with Saladin and I expect to be close to WFYABTA with Cyrus. It takes us only 2-3 turns to research Sailing, and I'd like to save our last trade(s) for something better (e.g. Divine Right <> Engineering). Once we get Engineering, then we can research missing cheap technologies, in my view. It's partly why I'm unsure of the possible Theology <> Currency and Theology <> Constuction deals on the table now ... both tech's are so useful, while we don't have a great immediate need for Sailing.

 

[FiveRings]

Istanbul as our sole science hub

I'd be very careful with whipping Istanbul and taking citizens off those cottages ... this city is the 'brains trust' of the entire empire. Maybe that Monastery's whippable when the city gets to population 11 or 12 where you can whip citizens off the Ivory tiles. Personally I'd keep a focus on growing those cottages. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but I really would like to push our technology development as hard as possible. I think that our trades are going to be limited in this game, and we'll need to do the bulk of our own technology acquisition.

Agree. Am not sure I'll keep it that way after gettin ENG, though - for a short - hopefully - period of time we'll need its production for military units - but I don't expect to whip it so that we lose a lot of research - whip / grow/ whip....[/QUOTE]

Sailing and WFYABTA

I would not take Sailing in a deal. For the reasons outlined earlier, we have already got to WFYABTA with Saladin and I expect to be close to WFYABTA with Cyrus. It takes us only 2-3 turns to research Sailing, and I'd like to save our last trade(s) for something better (e.g. Divine Right <> Engineering). Once we get Engineering, then we can research missing cheap technologies, in my view.

Completely agreed. But the sailin was a bonus to the CURR , $s, - to speed up research of ENG, and putting MM on the wrong path of wonder-building. If you are still considering it non-worthwhile, just confirm: you have a much better perspective than I do.

Ok. guys, I am going itno this in 3 hours at the utmost. So, use your last chance before I screw it...

 

[FiveRings]

FiveRings, your analysis of the game (and its' mechanics) is very cool. I tend to "shoot from the hip" in my gameplay and, so far, playing with you (and Cam) has made me think a little more about the choices I make when I play. For that, I thank you both.

[/SALUTATION]

Thanks, but all my pennies do not even compare with the 100-pound gorilla in our team....I hope I'm still on it, Cam?, oh, please!!!!!! Tell me fast, I see you are on the thread right now!

 

[Cam_H]

I understand that Sailing is thrown into the trade, but it still adds to our WFYABTA count and it's a very cheap technology to research ourselves. If you really want it, and think that it outweighs the potential cost of hitting WFYABTA with the bulk of the leaders, then that's fine. I wouldn't take it, but that's your call.

Feudalism, Machinery, Code of Laws (for Theology, not for Divine Right), and Engineering are all probably worth trading for however, and I'd look more kindly on those possible trades.

My apologies - I was editing post #184 when you did #185.

gorilla in our team....

Well, I'm hardly the best Civ4 player in these forums (by a long shot!), but I hope I'm helping somehow.

 

[FiveRings]

Well, I'm hardly the best Civ4 player in these forums (by a long shot!), but I hope I'm helping somehow.

Eh, I have seen a game or two of Sulla's, but you definitely make a much better tutor, let me add: for my level, to be on the safe side... And that's precisely why I am so unhappy that I acn't follow your videorecordings - and with the latest set, it is not only the pauses, but also black screen for almost all of the recording. could you, please, check the last one, for instance? Does everything play well for you? I hope no, as otherwise I'll really have to buy anew comp... just joking of course

Interestingly enough, I have come across a post of yours dated 2005, where you were pleading for spellchecker use. Will it be a too great speculation to assume there's a chance that you are an instructor of some kind? Years ago I would make the same suggestion without being in the teaching profession, but, nevertheless, having some academic background...

Anyways, W, please, expect the posting of the save some time soon ... or tomorrow if it takes me longer...

 

[FiveRings]

OK, I did 3 turns (I can post the save if you'd like to take a look). On the major developments: yes, we have got the Constr, and no, MM doesn't want to trade Mach "just yet"; I can't understand why I don't see Elephantine (should have been built before Alexandria) and Ram has already 7 towns (the latest is Giza)

I was prompted to touch bases on the following important development: first, the turn before Ram took vassalege, and this time, checking his relations with the other AIs I find out that he "has enough on our hands" with all of them. Is it the most logical conclusion that he is preparing a war with us?

There are a couple minor things: (1) I don't understand the immediate benefits of running an engineer in Besh, but as I started a new worker there, i left it intact, as a bulb a turn is not such a big loss. Anyway, I just wanted to make sure that high and wise reasoning on his possible use later on is to take into consideration. However, with pending scientists in Ista, I am not quite sure we want him (I guess, I have spotted hime and mixed up Ed with Besh and Priest with Engineer in one of my previous posts). (2) I am going for max food around Ista (including farming the sugars for the time being) but I see W considering this a loss of workertime, so, just wanted to ask once again whether our mighty and smiling upon us leader Pharao Ram, eh, sorry, it was Cam, would like to share in his infinite wisdom, er, Ok, I seem to hear his prits chiming: farm, farm, farm, so farming the sugar it is..., and getting those scientists work for a change... (3) I have come across - and usually use it in my games - an advice to switch the research rate between 0 and 100% as the way to make most of the bulbs. On the other hands, I have also met an observation that 70% rate is the most efficient one. Any thoughts and suggestions re the way to take?

I think, I'll finish my turn tomorrow evening, and anything that comes within the next 18 hours is much appreciated!

 

[Cam_H]

why I am so unhappy that I acn't follow your videorecordings - and with the latest set, it is not only the pauses, but also black screen for almost all of the recording. could you, please, check the last one, for instance? Does everything play well for you? I hope no, as otherwise I'll really have to buy anew comp... just joking of course

Interestingly enough, I have come across a post of yours dated 2005, where you were pleading for spellchecker use. Will it be a too great speculation to assume there's a chance that you are an instructor of some kind? Years ago I would make the same suggestion without being in the teaching profession, but, nevertheless, having some academic background...

(a.) The YouTube videos work fine for me, but if you can't use them, then I'll go back to the traditional typed turn report. I'm somewhat uncomfortably self-conscious about these recordings anyway!

(b.) No - not a teacher. I think that I was one of only a dozen people on CivFanatics that could spell "Bureaucracy" four or five years ago, and it was driving me nuts! Some posts were littered with spelling mistakes, typographical errors, and poor sentence construction to the point that they were actually quite difficult to understand. I appreciate that English isn't everyone's native tongue, but that's perhaps all the more reason to take some sort of measures (such as cut-and-paste drafted replies into Microsoft Word first) to check spelling and/or grammar. With that said, I know that I've made more than my fair share of spelling mistakes, typographical errors, etc. (indeed I know that there's at least one in this thread that I've yet to fix!), and as such, yes - I am a hypocrite!

the turn before Ram took vassalege, and this time, checking his relations with the other AIs I find out that he "has enough on our hands" with all of them. Is it the most logical conclusion that he is preparing a war with us?

I'd assume either us or Saladin. The thing in our 'favour' is that we don't have a conflicting religion. I'd move some Spears and Axes to Ankara nonetheless. Good work on spotting the WHEOOHRN.

(1) I don't understand the immediate benefits of running an engineer in Besh, but as I started a new worker there, i left it intact, as a bulb a turn is not such a big loss.

You can move him if you want. I thought at the time that if we spend the whole game running an Engineer there, we might eventually pop a Great Engineer, but I am completely fine if you put him to some other use. While we were building a Worker, it made minimal difference on the specialist versus running the citizen on a Plains Forest. Now we have Construction, you'll be looking to Catapults I guess, and working a tile with an extra food could be worth something.

(2) I am going for max food around Ista (including farming the sugars for the time being) but I see W considering this a loss of workertime, ...

As per earlier, I personally see Istanbul as a science centre, that can be considered for whipping at population 10-12. I would get those two other Grassland cottages up and work them, as well as the three established ones, and then use our food surplus to support the two Scientists. From there, that leaves the Ivory tiles, which can be worked or whipped away as seen fit. I appreciate the urgency for Catapults and War Elephants, but if we let our technology rate wane, we'll end up even more backward than we are now. With Bureaucracy, the time we spend now maturing cottages will pay us back handsomely. Again, that's just my view, and if the roster wants to go in a different direction, then so be it.

This is of course in stark contrast to how we used Istanbul in the early game to 2-pop-whip out our Axes, but the times, they are a changing.

(3) I have come across - and usually use it in my games - an advice to switch the research rate between 0 and 100% as the way to make most of the bulbs.

My understanding of 'binary research' ... which is swinging the commerce slider from 0% to 100% or 100% to 0% is done for three purposes ...

(a.) Post-Writing / Pre-Library or Post-Education / Pre-Universities and Oxford

When you pick up a technology and about to build a 'multiplier' building, such as a Library in your capital, by hording gold while the building is going on, and then once the Library's done splurge on research, you get the increased benefit of the Library's multiplier effect with your overall commerce. That is, horde cash when you don't have your Library, and use that cash on science once you do to get the benefit of the multiplier.

(b.) Holding back research for trades

If you have a technology that you can trade around, it might be worthwhile pulling research back on other technologies, just to see if you can later pick them up in trades. For instance, you might have Astronomy, but want to get Printing Press and Chemistry ... rather than self-research these (which might soon become available in trades), you might want to horde cash and wait to see if the AI is willing to trade Astronomy <> Printing Press and Astronomy <> Chemistry in a few turns. If the trades are not available, then splurge all of that horded cash on a few turns at 100% instead. If the trades are available, you make your trades and use the gold you've just saved on pursuing another technology such as a faster research on Steel.

(c.) Rounding

'Apparently' there is a mathematical rounding up of flasks or gold that works in favour of running extremes with the commerce slider. I'm not sure if this is true or not, or if it's worth the effort.​

(3)... I have also met an observation that 70% rate is the most efficient one. Any thoughts and suggestions re the way to take?

I am not sure I understand where the 70% is the most efficient rate has come from. I'd suggest that there are so many variables in the game that such suggestions might be 'a little dangerous'. In our case now, we probably won't be getting much value out of binary research as I fear that our ability to trade will be limited and we don't have Libraries or Universities being built at the moment. Consequently we can run the commerce slider at 'break even' rather than worrying about see-sawing between 0% and 100%.

 

[FiveRings]

(a.) The YouTube videos work fine for me, but if you can't use them, then I'll go back to the traditional typed turn report. I'm somewhat uncomfortably self-conscious about these recordings anyway!

Too bad for me! I don't want to be the reason for your return to obsolete tech of reporting. Maybe the best way to go is just me asking some MORE stupid questions.

I'd assume either us or Saladin. The thing in our 'favour' is that we don't have a conflicting religion. I'd move some Spears and Axes to Ankara nonetheless. Good work on spotting the WHEOOHRN.

Thanks, I am learning! I knew even before that screens have to be checked to glean additional info - there was a wiz that used also sounding the unrevealed map for this, which I couldn't replicate, regrettably - but it was only in this game and LOOKING at your first videos that I realized how important that is. Which reminds me that I couldn't understand why you were checking the attitude of only specific pairs of AIs - and why THESE exactly specific pairs - in the first installment of the latest series of your recordings: the only one I was able to follow (in the second, the camera was showing our map all the time while it was evident that you were moving workers, checking cities, AIs - by what you were saying, the last three parts were mostly black screens - again, I'm almost sure that this is my comp or the media software of the Vista, I do have problems watching DVDs that should be running well). One last thing: I am always very uneasy about not understanding the exact meaning of the demographics on the respective screen. Do you have any easy references on this?

About moving units to Ankara: I have already unloaded some of those quarteered in Turfan where no fast growth is expected, but sent only one spear to Ankara, the others - to Kara, trying to keep up the growth there. I might need to redirect those as well as the Besh axe I sent to Ista for the same reasons.

You can move him if you want. I thought at the time that if we spend the whole game running an Engineer there, we might eventually pop a Great Engineer, but I am completely fine if you put him to some other use. While we were building a Worker, it made minimal difference on the specialist versus running the citizen on a Plains Forest. Now we have Construction, you'll be looking to Catapults I guess, and working a tile with an extra food could be worth something.

I kind of guessed that, no, actually, I thought you were planning to use him to build the HS, but for the same time-related reasons. I will keep him as long as I can, but the conflicting interestedness in GrSc and GrEng might prove extremely difficult to manage, imho.

As per earlier, I personally see Istanbul as a science centre, that can be considered for whipping at population 10-12. I would get those two other Grassland cottages up and work them, as well as the three established ones, and then use our food surplus to support the two Scientists. From there, that leaves the Ivory tiles, which can be worked or whipped away as seen fit. I appreciate the urgency for Catapults and War Elephants, but if we let our technology rate wane, we'll end up even more backward than we are now. With Bureaucracy, the time we spend now maturing cottages will pay us back handsomely. Again, that's just my view, and if the roster wants to go in a different direction, then so be it.

This is of course in stark contrast to how we used Istanbul in the early game to 2-pop-whip out our Axes, but the times, they are a changing..

I have already one of the suggested cottages (the NW one) working, but was thinking about farming the sugar before recottaging the farm 1W and farming the bridge to the pasture in the N. I guess I need to recalculate the amount of food needed to have the scientists up and finetune the order of this. I don't particularly like the idea of cottaging the sugar, although at least one of those might go that way. I guess, we won't know how tradeable the sugar is till we get the Cal.

My understanding of 'binary research' ... which is swinging the commerce slider from 0% to 100% or 100% to 0% is done for three purposes ...

(a.) Post-Writing / Pre-Library or Post-Education / Pre-Universities and Oxford

When you pick up a technology and about to build a 'multiplier' building, such as a Library in your capital, by hording gold while the building is going on, and then once the Library's done splurge on research, you get the increased benefit of the Library's multiplier effect with your overall commerce. That is, horde cash when you don't have your Library, and use that cash on science once you do to get the benefit of the multiplier.

(b.) Holding back research for trades

If you have a technology that you can trade around, it might be worthwhile pulling research back on other technologies, just to see if you can later pick them up in trades. For instance, you might have Astronomy, but want to get Printing Press and Chemistry ... rather than self-research these (which might soon become available in trades), you might want to horde cash and wait to see if the AI is willing to trade Astronomy <> Printing Press and Astronomy <> Chemistry in a few turns. If the trades are not available, then splurge all of that horded cash on a few turns at 100% instead. If the trades are available, you make your trades and use the gold you've just saved on pursuing another technology such as a faster research on Steel.

(c.) Rounding

'Apparently' there is a mathematical rounding up of flasks or gold that works in favour of running extremes with the commerce slider. I'm not sure if this is true or not, or if it's worth the effort.​

I am not sure I understand where the 70% is the most efficient rate has come from. I'd suggest that there are so many variables in the game that such suggestions might be 'a little dangerous'. In our case now, we probably won't be getting much value out of binary research as I fear that our ability to trade will be limited and we don't have Libraries or Universities being built at the moment. Consequently we can run the commerce slider at 'break even' rather than worrying about see-sawing between 0% and 100%.

Excellent summing-up of the points that I have come across and haven't systematized for myself! I guess, I need to do a simulation to find out whether 0-100 switches really work. About the 70%: it was just a remark somewhere, but I guess I somehow felt it might be true judging from the marginal changes in the numbers of percentages and turns...

Thank you so much for the excellent leadership!

 

[Cam_H]

I am always very uneasy about not understanding the exact meaning of the demographics on the respective screen. Do you have any easy references on this?

The Inner Workings of the Demographics Screen Explained.

I kind of guessed that, no, actually, I thought you were planning to use him to build the HS, but for the same time-related reasons. I will keep him as long as I can, but the conflicting interestedness in GrSc and GrEng might prove extremely difficult to manage, imho.

I'm perfectly OK for you to use the citizen in some other way.

Provided that the Hagia Sophia is still available by the time we get to Engineering, I'd almost certainly build it in Edirne which should be our big city.

I have already one of the suggested cottages (the NW one) working, but was thinking about farming the sugar before recottaging the farm 1W and farming the bridge to the pasture in the N. I guess I need to recalculate the amount of food needed to have the scientists up and finetune the order of this. I don't particularly like the idea of cottaging the sugar, although at least one of those might go that way. I guess, we won't know how tradeable the sugar is till we get the Cal.

I'd say that we could cottage one of Istanbul's Sugars and one or two of the Ivories without too much harm, and farm the other Sugars until we get Calendar, but I'm happy to leave this up to the roster.

 

[FiveRings]

Great source, that Mechanics! Why haven't I looked into it myself before?! Oh, yah, the pleasure of playing, not learning...
OK I'll go into playing now ... you already know why...

 

[FiveRings]

I am (maybe) thru the 8th turn. I feel I need to discuss the situation before proceeding. Why? Because for the first time we can trade Theo for Mach (we need 6 more turns to research it ourselves being at 563/1046 but also at 60% research and $0 cash, so next turn will have to go down to 50% research and still have 6 turns to get to Mach (with a small increment of cash, we might just barely do it). Cyrus also got to Mach the previous turn but doesn't want to trade it. Ram switched to Bureau, and, iirc, MM did so at the beginnig of my turnset. The bad news - besides the somewhat - but not very, imho - unfair trade ratio is that there seems to be little chance to trade DR for ENG after that, as the only one to be able to research it is MM, from whom we might get the Mach. BUT we have to build the Sophia. So?!
To that should be added that for 7 turns I didn't trade construction for Sal's cash: mainly because of the unfair trade (for $190 at the start of the turnset, lastly - for $180) but also because I don't want to tempt Sal to lay hands on our ivory, pleased or not with us. However, this MIGHT provide us with a breath of air, so?!
I am still hesitant to whip into penalty but the army-building takes a LONG time, and Ankara - with all the units therein is ours only at 53% (each turn we are losing 1 p.p. ownership). But I think I'll just start doing that, so wanted to confirm there is no strong objection (I just don't feel 1000 AD to be early enough to start the war with Ram with his 7 cities now, esp that we need to use our powerhouse, Ed, to build the HS, and deal with Alex as well after Ram - AFTER Ram, yes?)

Sorry to drag my turnset like this, but the decision on the tech trades looks like a very important one to me.

Edit: I hate that pleased face of Ram - pleased with us! - already (ah, I did refuse to provide the poor fellow with Theo out of charity at the beginning of the turnset. I think THIS pleased him so much!)

 

[Cam_H]

Do whatever you feel is best.

Maybe we'll just self-research Machinery and find out who has Engineering from there. We might need to gift one or two of them Theology so they can then trade us Engineering <> Divine Right if Mansa won't.

 

[FiveRings]

Do whatever you feel is best.

Maybe we'll just self-research Machinery and find out who has Engineering from there. We might need to gift one or two of them Theology so they can then trade us Engineering <> Divine Right if Mansa won't.

Well, this won't be the first Monarch that's been f... up!

My point was, actually, that all the others, except MM, got machinery - which is a prerequisite of ENG - last move or so: I have saves and written notes of almost every move, so, I'll be able to check in the evening, but I am 100% sure about everybody else but Ram. He might have got it a couple of turns earlier, or not got it at all. Now, except MM and Ram, all the others seem to be at the same - more or less - speed of research as ours, which makes only Ram and MM potential traders of ENG. Well, I guess neither of them will trade it, as whoever gets it will start building the HS - or very probably so. IIRC, in such a case, the AI doesn't trade the respective tech. So, willy-nilly, we need to speed up our research to have any chances. Now that I have laid it down, I think I'll also trade the MC with Alex - alas - for the $100 he has. Bringing the RR to 100% could shed 4 turns off our research on the Mach. We will be able to have a couple of 100% research turns of ENG with Alex's money and then slide down to the 40-30%. I'll call two scientists in Ista. I'll also start the war with Ram ASAP and hope to take Thebes. I was also thinking of hitting again KK for some additional gold, but then decided that this will only make him a vassal of Ram.
Bottomline is that Elephantine is not on the continent, if it is not in the farthest NW, and I don't think this is the case, or behind KK, which is doubtful. In both cases, our odds of subjugating Ram in time to take successfully on Alex are very low. With that sung out, I'll be using the carte blanche I have received from you, and have fun for a dozen more moves or till the HS is built

 

[woopdeedoo]

Didn't we have a Eng running somewhere? How long till a GE will be popped? I may be mistaken because I am lurking other threads as well so please clarify. If we are, why not use him on HS? Again, I may be completely off track and if so, I apologise.

 

[Cam_H]

This is all going on memory (away from Civ computer) ...;

iirc, I put one or two turns of an Engineer in Beshbalik while we were building a Worker. We'll end up with a Great Scientist(s) in Istanbul and a Great Prophet before we get to popping that Great Engineer unfortunately. That Engineer was a bit of a whim, and really I could have worked one of the Plains Forests instead.

I think Edirne, with a Forge and Marble, should get The Hagia Sophia built in around 10 turns if we can get it running all of those Mines?

I say this with 'limited confidence', however; an Engineering <> Divine Right trade, if that's at all do-able, will also open The Spiral Minaret and Versailles up to the AI, lessening the chance that they'll shoot for Hagia Sophia ... maybe??

(If this game is a "f.... up!" I don't mind starting a new game with far less oppressive variant rules, but I think we should keep chipping away at this one - ya never know! 'Rise from the ashes' and all of that!).

 

[FiveRings]

This is all going on memory (away from Civ computer) ...;

iirc, I put one or two turns of an Engineer in Beshbalik while we were building a Worker. We'll end up with a Great Scientist(s) in Istanbul and a Great Prophet before we get to popping that Great Engineer unfortunately. That Engineer was a bit of a whim, and really I could have worked one of the Plains Forests instead.

I think Edirne, with a Forge and Marble, should get The Hagia Sophia built in around 10 turns if we can get it running all of those Mines?

I say this with 'limited confidence', however; an Engineering <> Divine Right trade, if that's at all do-able, will also open The Spiral Minaret and Versailles up to the AI, lessening the chance that they'll shoot for Hagia Sophia ... maybe??

(If this game is a "f.... up!" I don't mind starting a new game with far less oppressive variant rules, but I think we should keep chipping away at this one - ya never know! 'Rise from the ashes' and all of that!).

We'd have needed some 60 turns to get the Engineer. I do hope we'll be having ENG far sooner thru research or trade...

Good point that one on wonder distraction! Makes me feel better...but let's see the ENG for sale first...

Eh, I said that just to reassure myself, I guess: I've been spending too much time just to make myself move... I don't want to let you down, guys, and I don't like to lose even when I play...still... And I want to win under THESE variant rules, and wouldn't be changing them till I'm fed up losing...which won't come any time soon!

Just for your info: I replayed a bit of the game from the start on, and was able to get a city on Turfan myself, while Sal again was faster in getting the W place but this time exactly where W wanted the town. But the most important thing is, and that's why I'm bubbling about this restart, the most important thing is that I moved faster and with much better understanding of what is going on. So, if I come to the Down Under (I hope this is not used in any diminishing way!) you can count on a whisky, Cam! Erh, it is also easy to promise as the odds are very small, indeed!

 

[woopdeedoo]

Just for your info: I replayed a bit of the game from the start on, and was able to get a city on Turfan myself, while Sal again was faster in getting the W place but this time exactly where W wanted the town. But the most important thing is, and that's why I'm bubbling about this restart, the most important thing is that I moved faster and with much better understanding of what is going on. So, if I come to the Down Under (I hope this is not used in any diminishing way!) you can count on a whisky, Cam! Erh, it is also easy to promise as the odds are very small, indeed!

What did you just say? I am extremely confused by that post FR. No offense intended!