The Sword of Osman

[Cam_H]

I think he replayed the 4000BC start and got the western Marble city up, although missed the sweet spot that you (woopdeedoop) identified that again was taken by Saladin ... and he owes me a Bourbon if he swings through Australia because he's more 'at one' with his playstyle, albeit a visit to Oz is not in the foreseeable future.



So ... is the turnset been completed?

Oh yeah ... be careful ...

Players may not 'play ahead' until the game is completed.

 

[woopdeedoo]

I think he replayed the 4000BC start and got the western Marble city up, although missed the sweet spot that you (woopdeedoop) spotted which again was taken by Saladin ... and he owes me a Bourbon if he swings through Australia because he's more 'at one' with his playstyle, albeit a visit to Oz is not in the foreseeable future.



So .. are we finished our turnset yet?

Thanks. That's what I thought but was kinda

 

[FiveRings]

I think he replayed the 4000BC start and got the western Marble city up, although missed the sweet spot that you (woopdeedoop) identified that again was taken by Saladin ... and he owes me a Bourbon if he swings through Australia because he's more 'at one' with his playstyle, albeit a visit to Oz is not in the foreseeable future.



So ... is the turnset been completed?

Oh yeah ... be careful ...

i AM crushed!






Is my English so bad?!!!!!


OK guys, you'll get the save after my eleventh turn, as I feel you ARE tense!!!



But Not for this reason. Or, only to some extent due to this.

The actual reason is: we have a Great General, and I'd like to have a team opinion on whether to build the MAc for +exp, or beef up our army: yes, we have a small one already: something like 3-4 cats and 4-5 phants (with a few in the immediate part of the pipeline.)

We have 7 turns to ENG (but MM is on it a couple of turns already, actually, he researched it on my t9, ie in 620, and doesn't want to sell it (actually we have nothing to buy it with, as HE SEEMS TO OWN THE DR, the bustrard)

But if we build the HS, WE SHALL WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The bad news is that our marble mine will be destroyed next turn (and Sid wants me to believe that the AIs are not conspiring all together against the human race, AND that they don't know every single move of ours?! Come on, Sid, we would like to think that we are smarter than that, maybe not by a mile, but still...

However, we have the workers and we have to, WE MUST, send them ALL to the mine to rebuild is ASAP (except in the case, of course, that Ram is dumb enough to attack our units and leave the mine intact, but somehow I don't belive this is in the scenario...

2nd MUST: DON't diminish the research effort in Ista, try to grow and research optimally, never disworking a cottage, NO UNITS there before we get ENG!

3rd MUST: DON't WHIP Ed anymore, we need it and its population for whipping the HS, actually I should have max-ed growth there, but this comes to my mind a bit late, and I leave it to W's conscienciousness,! Wow, and you pretend not to understand my English!?!?! Well, I do hope the spelling of theis LONG S-word is correct...

I also think we need to sell something to somebody to get more gold and finish the ENG w/o delay, even if this is DR to Sal for a meagre $100 or so, Ivory fo Cyrus fish +$3 or 4, or MM (for a health resource, if needed doing an exchange with another one beforehand), even a dozen bucks from KK for Mono or Lit: W, it's your call, if we agree we need the money.

Well, this all came with a price - surprise, suprise: selling Theo left and right. But I do think it was worth it, and we had no other way to keep our chances of winning...

You will get more details later, here's the save:

 

[FiveRings]

Oh yeah ... be careful ...

I am not interested in showing up, so I don't play ahead. I have played from the beginning, 4000 bc ("restarted" was the verb i used, iirc). And only till I founded Turfan or so.

 

[FiveRings]

Actually, Ram's HA on the marble can be attacked twice: half turn of the cat and a turn of the spear, iirc, in Turf. But both odds were - separately gleaned - low, and I have recently lost two upgraded axes on a cat in the grassland, so would rather not take the risk: Big Brother , er, I mean: Sid, arghh: I mean the Lord of the AIs is watching....

 

[FiveRings]

Oh, my, I forgot to tell you that Ram declared on us in 600 AD, has sent two cats+Char+HA, then another Char to Ankara, then HA=HA landed from a galley by Turfan (there are still two charriots close to Ankara, and a HA on the marble tile). I have killed 1 HA on the marble tile, one cat and the single late char by Ankara (that's the wounded spear to the NE or E, and a HA on the marble tile ( that's the phant in Turf). The HA in the mini-stack sent to Ank killed itself upon the phant there. That's about it, and I am positive that this doesn't measure up to Scipio Africanensis, if I still remember the history of Rome decently enough... What happened to the sevond cat of the mini-stack is a mystery ...

 

[FiveRings]

400AD (t1)
Besh: worker>worker
Besh axe moved towards Ista
Turfan spear moved towards Ankara, 2nd spear - towards Kara
Chariot moved to see whether Elephantine is in the North, then will go to Ankara
Sal has HA
Cyrus has both Alex and Sal as close friends
Ram has 7 cities (latest is Giza)

425 AD (t2)
MM switches to Bureau
Turfan axe moves towards Kara

450 AD (t3)
Sal wants ivory for cow: No
CONSTR> Mach (9t)
Gr Eng born in Thebes
MM doesn't want to trade MACH "just yet"
Ram has enough on his hads with all the other AIs

475 AD (t4) Ram needs our charity in the form of Theo: No
Ed: forge.cat
Ank whips library
One Mio souls
Ista spear moves towards Ankara
Kara axe moves to Ankara
Research goes down to 60% -> Mach now in 13 turns
Cyrus has HA
MM has war Elephant, Mach is not tradable
Alex is no more pleased with Ram's civic

500 AD (t5)
Mahabodhi bfal
Ankara: no temple> cat
Ram pleased with everytbody but us, cautious in our case

520 AD (t6)
Besh: worker>cat
Kara: barracks>phant
Besh's culture pops
Taoism fdl
Chariot in Ankara
Sal is pleased with us and ready to give us $190 for construction, but I decide to wait as much as fit

540 AD (t7)
Ed: cat>phant
Turfan whips forge
Ed cat moved towards Kara to help with Hapcap
Alex has HA

560 AD (t8)
Turfan: forge>cat
Ed whips phant
Alex considers KK his worst enemy
Sal now has only $180 to offer for Constr
Cyrus has gotten Machinery, but doesn't want to trade it
MM still doesn't sell Mach
Ram is pleased with us, even willing to trade Iron (of which he has two)

580 AD (t9)
Ed: phant>phant
Ram switches to Bureaucracy
Alex switches to OR
Ista whips Monastery
Research still kept at 60% thanks to Ista cottages and growth, but also some help from KK's former towns in the South. NO MONEY in nthe treasury, though
MM willing to trade Mach
After the latest discussion and return to save:
Theo to MM for Mach+$20 -> Eng in 18 turns
Theo to Sal for $180, to Alex for $100, to Cyrus for $110
Looks like MM has DR as it is not on our selling list when conversing with him
Research set at 100%-> Eng in 11 turns

600 AD (t10)
Ram declares on us
Besh: cat>phant, phant whipped
Ista: hammam replaced by phant
KK converts to Judaism
Ista: ciulture pop
Move chariot to Ram and back and see: from Alexandria a stack of HA+cat+2 chariots [I have later mixed up one of these witha a cat and wondered in my post where the cat has gone, well, now reading thru my notes I "solve" the mystery]

620 (t11)
Besh: phant>cat
Kara: phant>phant
Turf: cat>cat
Ista: Phant whipped
Kara: phant whipped
MM has ENG but is not trading it

640 AD (t12)
Ed: phant>cat
Kara: phant>cat
Ram gets ANOTHER GrEng within the last dozen turns
GrSc bfal
Ankara Phant kills cat in the stack (6.8/8)
Now I notice that we have iron after latest Ista culture pop
MM wants no trading around Eng
1 scientist starts running in Ista bringing Eng a turn closer than w/o him (8 instead of 9 turns)
Ista: no hammam, please>cat

660 AD (t13)
Ram's HA kills itself upon our Phant in Ankara the rest of the stack goes back (phant gets Medic I promo)
Ankara spear kills chariot by it (2.7/4)
Ram's galley has unloaded 2 HAs on the marble tile by Turfan
Phant moves into Turfan and from there - with 98.9% odds [!?!] kills one of the HA: we get a Great General: Scipio Africans (in Kara - I move him towards Ed where we might want a Military Academy, or from where Scipio can move to the budding army in Ankara
one more phant is moved by the tile w/ Ram's HA who can't go away if not running for his life towards the galley
A cat is moved into Turfan using1/2 move (I don't want to risk attacking the HA with the cat and the spear BUT I SEEM TO HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT THERE IS ONE MORE UNIT IN TURFAN: the wounded victorious phant. So it might worthwhile to try to kill the bastard with the spear then cat, but I still have my doubts as to the success of such an enterprise, and will consider the loss of one of these units not insignificant. Combo cat first, then spear also seems good - with some chances that the cat withdraws from battle: please, look first at the cat's promotions: I think I haven't set any, but am not sure) Worst case: both spear and cat dye, HA destroys mine, but maybe I am too conservative spear should be a good match for the HA: 8 vs 6 iirc, so, W, it's your call, to quote the wisest and mightiest...
Besh: cat>cat
Ista: cat> hammam (I leave it as no use of producing military unit there; I also leave the just-born Ista cat in place for the happicap)
Turf whips cat [wow, we will have an additional cat in Turf next turn: what it is with me guys?]
I haven't recorded my moving of units towards Ankara as well as the noble deeds of our workers: started chopping form the forest hill closest to Alex and intended to move chopping to the West through the southern Ottoman lands (couple of workers are in the North to ameliorate lands around Ed)

OK, my take on what are some of our priorities is in my previous post.

Let me also come up with a new idea: maybe mine the iron/pasture the 2nd horse and sell them for money inflow if someone is interested: we won't need the horse as everybody seems to have that usually quite rare animal (but don't sell it to KK TOO soon!!) and I am not sure about the Iron: we won't need it in the next 10 turns (is that how long we can't recall it back?!| but for pikes - iirc - that might come handy soon though... (well, on a second thought,moving the workers and tilting the tile might take too long esp. if the marble mine is gone - and we do need that marble to have some chances with the HS!!!)

BTW, I have gone beyond the 10 turns, and would have gone a couple more as I wanted to mop up the invadors but for Scipio's emergence. However, I have also double counted my turns twice yesterday: nightplaying doesn't seem to work very well with me...

Now, I can continue tomorrow, if you'd like me to: it's St George's Day, which happens to be the day of the BG army, - if what we have now can be called an army - and an official holiday, so feel free to burden me with some more responsibilities!!! ....

 

[Cam_H]

All looking good!

It seems like there's not too much that we can do to hurry along Engineering that you haven't already considered.

Almost as a reflex, I use my first Great General as a Super-Medic on a Chariot, but I'm relaxed about any sensible use for it (e.g. merge into Edirne, or attach to a War Elephant for Combat + Shock etc.).

You might want to micro Istanbul for this turn so it pops out an Archer or a Chariot, so you can then free-up that Catapult without compromising the Hereditary Rule happiness there.

Possibly also worth bearing in mind re. Hagia Sophia 'race' ... Mali has shown little propensity to build World Wonders in this game so far; despite being the tech' leader pretty much, Mansa's only built the two Wonders (Great Lighthouse and Colossus) and is currently capable of building; Notre Dame, the Chichen Itza, and University of Sankore, in addition to the Hagia Sophia ... so he's got a lot of options (other than the Hagia Sophia) and as I suggest, has shown relatively little interest in Wonder building for far.

Best of luck with the last few turns!

 

[woopdeedoo]

i AM crushed!

Is my English so bad?!!!!!

Not so bad! Was just a little confused is all. I think if you capitalised the W, I would have understood 100%

I typed out all of my opinions and they all disappeared thanks to me clicking the wrong bloody thing Anyways, let me redo it all:

Trades:

Cyrus is the only one who is WFYHBTA

Sal will trade all his 120 as well Curr, Sailing and HBR for DR.

Mansa will trade same tech and 60 plus World Map for DR.

Alex and KK won't trade anything cause they think we suck NB. not because of WFYHBTA.

Cities MM

Ista: Moving citizens off the two farms and onto two camps will reduce growth to 9t but get the Hammam in 10. We could also whip it then, if we so wanted, for 3pop. That is, however, probably not such a great idea.

Edirne: One single warrior makes me worried in case Ram makes a sneak attack with a chariot. we would lose the city which would suck. On the same note, we could probably take it back soon enough but it still diverts from the war effort. We could also consider moving citizens off some farms and onto mines. We would still have growth but much more for faster unit production. This could really assist us in taking some of Rams' cities! That would make me !! Counter attacking and crushing the enemy makes me SOOOO happy

Ankara: is fine as is but spitting out more units From Edirne and sending them to Thebes via Ankara would be AWESOME!

Besh: Looks fine, should work some mines as soon as pop increases.

Kara: Working the mine instead of the pigs would still allow growth but allow for faster unit production, which would be great for our counter-attack. Maybe worth consider?

Turfan: Also looks fine. i would lay off the whip there for a bit and let it grow. Maybe work the mine when growth?

Those are my thoughts, none of the changes I suggested would not hurt our but would all allow for faster unit production. As I see it, Ram declaring on us was not as unfortunate as we may think. Let's take this opportunity to destroy/vassalise him... If we can

[EDIT] I don't think we should settle our GG, esp not in Erdine since it will be building the HS as soon as we get Eng. I rate we rather join it to a troop or create an acadamy.[/EDIT]

 

[woopdeedoo]

Looking at the map and considering our war effort, my additional thoughts are as follows:

The unmoved spear at Turfan can kill the HA's on our marble 4 vs 3.(something). I would try it before they can do harm.
Alexandria only has 2xLB and a spear guarding it. Shouldn't be too hard to take. There are 2xchariots incoming towards Ank but that should be easy to fend off.

Looking at borders, looks like there may be another city West of Thebes, there in the desert.

Regarding our counter-attack, I propose the following for consideration:

Keep some forces on Tarfun to prevent an amphibian attack. Start spitting out units only, forget about infra at this time wherever possible. Send as big a force as we can (note, there are plenty of troops in Ista that can be spared for the war effort) towards Alexandria(keep) first. It should fall easily. Then comes the hard bit; Thebes. This treasure should be the hardest to crack but boy-oh-boy is it a goodie! WoW central, baby! Once we have taken Thebes (keep *duh*), we should consider a two-pronged attack. One prong to Memphis (keep) and one to Giza (raze). Finally, ending in the capture of Pi-Ram.

There is Iron to our North-West that must be mined as a matter of life and death. xbows could very well be the one thing that truly tips the scales in our favour!

I apologise if I missed anything, I am typing in a fervour of extreme excitement. I think we can really do this if we are very careful with troop movements, MM for max , carefully promote and carefully strategise our movement into Ram's territory. We can get this, BABY!

[EDIT] We should also consider sending a chariot NW/W for additional scouting. Things are a bit dark over there.[/EDIT]

[Edit2] Re-reading your post FR, I don't think we should simply mop up the invaders. As you can probably tell, I'm very much for continuing the attack! I don't think as good a time as now to crush Ram will come along again and, as such, we should really seize it with both hands. Also, we don't have iron in any trade. We can't make xbows until we do (greyed out in Ista)[/Edit2]

[Edit3] As you all may or may not have noticed, I am a bit of a war monger whenever an opportunity presents itself. It all really depends on my mood [/Edit3]

 

[FiveRings]

My post from a non-propriety computer has got lost, which is very bad, indeed. In a nutshell: I'd like to go till we get Eng and a couple of moves after that: I have started pre-chopping forests around Ed, and would consider it best to continue micromanaging there till done. However, that will extend my turnset to about 20, and I don't want to deprive W from going to heaven for crushing the infidels (Gen Scipio was mumbling something about feeding a Mars, so I am considering very carefully feeding him to the horses of our chariot, I believe the wisest, etc., that this act will make our army - and our devoted people - much healthier! On the other side, I think that he, whoever invades the miraculous lands of Egypt, might be up for nasty surprises, so beware, W!

Now, I also think we need to discuss at least the essentials of our march into Egypt. I was thinking about (1) invading with about 15-20 cats and 10-ish phants, no less, + a small pack of spears and axes from Ankara, (2) going to Thebes first, and (3) splitting the army and back-up, if any, into two to take Alexandria and Heliopolis, iirc the closest Egyptian town to N or NW.

W has some good grounds in suggesting that we (1) go as fast as possible, (2) get the iron mined and add CBs to the pack of units, and (3) grab Alexandria first.

I am no big warmonger, so I'd defer to whatever you both agree upon as the best strategy. We need this settled fast, though.

I suggest that you let me know about your thoughts on the length of my turnset and whether we need the iron hooked ASAP. Regrettably, I had to go meet friends and to leave the game with my last turn unfinished (saved in mid-go) under the threat of divorce. I'll finish it and post the save and, later, a short report, so that to give W enough time to digest the situation, if we agree that I have played long enough in my turn. If I have a worker free, I'll move him towards the iron, instead of chopping, but will leave those chopping continue doing their chore for a turn at least.

I am not sure about my decision to chop in order to get the HS ASAP, as this will deprive us of something like 3-4 fast-built cats, but I have the feeling that this is the way to go, as the nasty MM is chuckling when we meet!

It seems it is worth discussing the DR sale, as well - can we do that, Cam? Now that I have written it, it looks like a blasphemy to me, so maybe you have to change that in your next game!?!

Anyway, Sailing might come handy if Elephantine is on an island (BTW, I'll check the map, W, but last time I looked at it, it seemed like a disaster to have the 3rd or 4th city settled in the NW wilderness and beyond Giza, the 7th one that looks pretty desolate itself, could it be Giza that you are talking about in your remark about the cultural borders of Egypt?). Currency and HR look OK too, and the money will come very handy as we lack a small amount to get ENG with 100% rate as it stays now. I feel somewhat discomfortable that we have nothing to gain from other AIs for a similar sale to them, but it might become possible in the future (COL looks good, and I guess the kinds of techs we get will depend on where we want to go technologically from here; usually I go for the oil or rail - Civ 2 hangover - or, lately, liberalism beelining, but this doesn't seem to work very well judging from the final outcomes of my games, so I'll be happy and grateful to hear about your long-term thinking on ourtech development, too!)

I am worried about W's remarks on amphibious assaults and flanking attacks onto Ed, although Ram seems like pretty much getting his HAs and chariots (obsolete?!) from the Northwest and flinging them directly unto Ankara (I have just despatched another small stack there). Cam, do you think Ram can do something like this? I thought it's not very probable, as he didn't have that many units in his towns, and he has built a lot of wonders to have those in abundance, but, on the other hand, the demographics tell a different story, it seems... It would be very nasty to lose Ed or Turf, although all new units go by them on route to Ankara...

 

[FiveRings]

The save is below and the brief report will follow in my next post.

A few notes before that, though:
1. W, thanks for the suggestions! I went through them before my last post, and have made references to them, but somehow forgot to thank you for the time and effort invested! And:
1.1. HA on mine was dealt with as I figured out it would take a long time to move the workers and mine the marble again, and there was a 67% chance that the spear will take the HA (and a cat was available if it failed,) so I went for it - with a winning spear.
1.2. I have managed the towns very much along what you were suggesting, maybe whipping a bit harder than it should be, and much harder than I usually do, but I also sense the need of urgent action against Ram.
1.3. Now that I looked more carefully into the map, I must say, with some relief, that you seem to be correct in assuming that Elephantine might be in the far NW of Egypt: both a piece of the border and the shape of the GW seem to point to that (and some fur being traded by Ram)
1.4. I couldn't move a worker to the iron as I have already assigned jobs to them. But there is a pack of three going to the western forest of Kara, that might be put off their route and redirected to the iron, if agreed upon (I myself don't see much coming from the CBs in the attacking, but they might be a nice addition to the pack providing some diversity: we will have to do mostly with LBs, CBs and maces, and, iirc, phants are better in this case (spears, and - hopefully not soon - pikes aside)
1.5. We can actually get - only now, ie, several turns later - Feud, curr, sail, HR and $ in various combinations from MM and Sal, but it should be noted also that we can get Sal to war with Ram for the DR as from this turn, so it might be worthwhile to get this diversion into play (MM is not including curr in the package, but this might be done, if necessary, although I kind of think that having the vassalizing option comes handy, given the variant rules). We can also just sell Monotheism to KK for $40, and I am very tempted to do so rightaway to secure one of the two turns of 100% research (at -49 each) we need (having $76 in our treasury), same thing about Alex and - alas - MC, and I think it a robbery to get this for $40.

What I am inclined to do now, but need your and Cam's endorsement: trade DR for MM's money and Feud and Curr (and Sail) if possible, and in that order of importance to secure the research, the vassalizing option, and strengthen a bit the economy, and get Sal into the war with Ram, I guess we will hardly get more from him, although an additional HR and $ would be nice... I'd sell Mono to KK once he gets to $60 (1/3 of Mono's worth), and I'll keep Alex from getting a far-too-cheap MC from us. I WOULD RATHER DO THIS BEFORE I PRESS "ENTER" and go to the next turn.

AGAIN, we need some fast discussion and agreement on military strategy and Iron-mining, as well as tech development: Eng will be in in 3-4 turns.

SAVE:

 

[FiveRings]

SECOND PART OF TURNSET:

660 AD (t13):
Before pressing "ENTER" on the posted save, I decide that it's better to deal with the HA on our marble (details in the previous post): spear kills the HA (1.0/4), I decide to leave it to heal on the marble and stay there till we build the HS

680 AD (t14):
Turf: cat>cat
Gen Scipio sent to Ankara (I decided that joining him to Ed might not be that good as we'll need the HS building there for quite some time, and I liked Cam's idea about the Medic III (is that the Super - M, or is the latter something associated with the General?); I also liked the idea of promoting a handful of phants to faster moving, NOW, some turns later, ie in 740 AD, seeing Egyptian maces, I think that the shock promo is a good idea, too!
I look at the AIs and find that Alex, Sal, Cyr all have 7 cities already. The b-ly MM has paper (a new addition, iirc) and doesn't want to trade the ENG
I missed to check WHY the AIs don't want to sell us techs, so: a big THANK YOU!, W, for showing the ugly face behind Cyrus smile! And - in the next turn - I also find out that Cyrus is warning us that he has the HA. I also find out that Ram is his closest friend - as we are, the hypocrite! MM also has us for a close frind but has given copper to Ram (for wine) and is also getting ivory from him (for clam). A lot of boot scents around! Good that Ram has iron, even two, otherwise pondering on how to get MM cancel the copper deal with him would ruin my day! Sal also has us for a close friend, wow... (I remind you that all these findings of unexpected warm feelings towards Osman were the outcome of the next turn but were reported here for stylistic reasons.)

700 AD (t15):
Besh: cat>phant
Kara: cat>phant
Truf: whips cat
Ista: whips hammam
Chariot recon: HA+cat+CB by Thebes

720 AD (t16):
Ista: hammam>cat (actually, I changed several times from J temple (17/80, iirc) to cat and back, as I felt we could lose the hammers invested into the temple, and it would be a nice overflow, ensuring a nice wipping couple of turns later, but finally settled on the cat as our priority is two consequitive wars); started running a scientist there (additional bulb and GP points towards the GrSc and Academy needed to deal with the unusual combination of researching and wonderbuilding warmongers: what have you done with their personalities, Cam!)
Ed: cat>cat
Turf: cat>cat
Bad news: Somebody built Chichen Itza, I think I can guess who's that, can you? I'll check later, as this is important to know, but won't change our course, so unwaveringly laid out by the wisest, etc....
Cyrus has just got CoL (if I am not mistaken, though)
MM tells us some shocking news: he was KNIGHTED!! And no, he won't sell us that engineering - just now ... in the best tradition of diplotalk... Well, he has also given Ram some gold for silk... Maybe that's why he has got that gentle touch of the blade on his shoulder???
Alex is cautious towards Cyrus - and rightly so...
And we have only 6 phants and 10 cats after all that whipping

740 AD (t17):
Besh: phant>phant
GrSc born in Persepolis
GrPr born in a fal
Ram brought a small stack to the town line of Ankara: 1cat+2HAs+3charriots
So?!
Ank phant kills the cat (at 0.8/8!!!! Sid really likes the cats, I am starting to have a strong feeling that his real name is Amon, Osiris, Seth, or Ra
Ank phant kills a HA (3.5/8)
Ank phant kills the 2nd HA (4.6/8)
Ank Phant kills a char (7.0/8)
Ank phant kills a char (2.8/8 !? Sid, you must be kidding!, or cheating!)
Ank Spear dares to go out of the town and kills the last char (and is 4/4, guys, something smells wrong here!!) Alas, our brave spear sees another pack of Egyptian armies by Thebes: 1cat+1HA+1Mace) And a MACE in it.

OK, seems time to sell DR to get money and Sal into the war with Ram, as MM is keeping the Engineering for himself and we can't infringe his intellectual property rights, can we, guys? No, no way!! You'll pay for that dearly, MM! You shall not pass! ahm, build HS, I mean... We need the money to ensure speedy research!! (ref: previous post)

 

[FiveRings]

Again, W, I am not pushing too much on getting the next runs, I hope?!

Just take good care of the workers, and HS-building, and wait for some more discussion and agreement on the line of attack on Egypt, and the continuation is yours for wishing it - and saying so!

 

[Cam_H]

Good stuff FiveRings ... nice to see those War Elephants getting into practise.

That Saladin deal looks too good to refuse! I'd take the 'War on Ramesses II' and Currency plus the . WFYABTA still worries me with Horseback Riding and Sailing. If it's still available after the Saladin deal, I'd shoot for Feudalism, World Map, and with Mansa. If not, well, at least we've converted Arabia from a big threat into an ally.

If we do get Saladin into this war, we just need to make sure that we take Thebes. Therefore we can't muck around too long in Ankara.

I'd attach Scipio Africanus to the Chariot to make it a Medic III. This will heal the War Elephants in only a couple of turns.

'Yes' to taking Kubai Kahn's 40.

Again, maybe look at a few Archers/Longbows or Chariots for home garrisons in addition to War Elephants and Catapults. I'm not being critical of the focus on War Elephants and Catapults for a second, but we do need to protect our cities and deal with emerging happiness problems.

 

[FiveRings]

Good stuff FiveRings ... nice to see those War Elephants getting into practise.

That Saladin deal looks too good to refuse! I'd take the 'War on Ramesses II' and Currency plus the . WFYABTA still worries me with Horseback Riding and Sailing. If it's still available after the Saladin deal, I'd shoot for Feudalism, World Map, and with Mansa. If not, well, at least we've converted Arabia from a big threat into an ally.

I feel I might not have been quite clear in what I am saying : Sal offers to go to the war for DR, I couldn't check on whether he'll throw something else in it, as he could have agreed, and then it would have been a fait accompli. He might very well NOT agree: actually, he could go to war with Alex, too, but we had nothing worthy enough to make this happen. So, all the techs could come from MM, if DR doesn't lose to much of its worth after selling it to Sal. But I think that this is a nice combination to get something out of DE in the short run and I would go for it, if you are still enthusiastic about a deal that gets Sal into the war for DR.

All the rest is OK with me.

So, if W feels she could wait for me doing some 5-6 more turns, I will go forth.

Getting nothing re techs, I would plan at this point of getting a tech on the beeline to Liberalism, or an immediate military one (to combine with the iron mining perhaps)

I'll wait for a couple of hours, and if there's no word from W, I'll proceeed.

 

[Cam_H]

How many turns do you intend to play in this '15-ish turn' turnset?

This is the deal I have in mind;

 

[FiveRings]

Oh, that's superb! Thanks!

I was asking Sal what he wants to go to war, he was telling me he wants the DR, and I was afraid to ask for specific additions, so that not to land in a situation where he accepts and the deal is done... Evidently, there is a way to probe, and I think this might be achievde by asking for everything and slowly moving to whatever is there, but wasn't sure how to do it, and didn't want to experiment in this particular game.

Do we trade with MM as well to take what we can for the DR once we lose the monopoly position? Eg, feudalism + $ + sail + HR, or we try to keep the number of bought techs to minimum (feud is good, imho)?

After getting the money, I am positive that we'll be able to sail to Eng on 100% reaseasrch rate. I thought I'd need a turn to get the workers back on pre-chopped forests, and a turn to start them chopping. I just wanted to make sure I have done whatever could be done to get the HS... On that turn I'd have handed over the leads. IIRC, Eng is due in 3 turns (but might be 4), so I'd have finished on turn 5 or 6 from now, on my turn 22 or 23 in this turnset, ie 840 or 860 AD.

However, it does seem a longish 15-turn set, indeed.

So, I reconsidered.

I am not playing further till my next turn comes. I think W is the next. I'll send her a PM, or whatever it is, to get into the operation seat.

 

[Cam_H]

Personally I'd keep tech' trades to a minimum - but 'yes' - Feudalism will allow us to 'cap' our enemies (should we be so lucky), so in my view, it's do-able in terms of our 'shopping list'.

I'm opposed to trading Sailing or Horseback Riding (cheap 'optional' technologies that will worsen our already precarious WFYABTA position) and would like to keep our tading options as open (as possible) for better technologies.

 

[FiveRings]

Personally I'd keep tech' trades to a minimum - but 'yes' - Feudalism will allow us to 'cap' our enemies (should we be so lucky), so in my view, it's do-able in terms of our 'shopping list'.

I'm opposed to trading Sailing or Horseback Riding (cheap 'optional' technologies that will worsen our already precarious WFYABTA position) and would like to keep our tading options as open (as possible) for better technologies.

Sounds very convincing to me. I have also forgotten - before I edited the post - that you have supported getting Feud+gold+map from MM. I don't seem to get a lot from the maps, but it's my builder's style, I guess. In our present situation it might add important info regarding KK and, hopefully, Alex: MM's skirmishers seem to have traveled a lot in our part of the world... With KK's $40 for our Mono, we might cheerfully go forward with our research towards ... Janissars?! or Liberalism!?