Indiansmoke
Deity
You are playing Mavs I am just logging in to check from time to time. Merlot I am playing and we did not miss a turn there, just not posted screens yet.
The West Tower
- Thread starter Indiansmoke
- Start date
You are playing Mavs I am just logging in to check from time to time. Merlot I am playing and we did not miss a turn there, just not posted screens yet.
Indiansmoke
Deity
My internet connection at home is down for more than a day now, hopefully it will be back up today but I would feel safer if someone played the Merlot turn just in case.
slaze
Deity
I did the unit moves and I was gonna ask you what you wanted to do with the trireme, and then I realized I made a mistake, I moved the stack so it could be seen (ships can see onto hills right?). Maybe we want to attack with our trireme? It's a 2.00 v 2.20, 32.2% odds. we have the 53
in reserve (circus chop) so that can make an extra for next turn if things go horribly wrong.
I also want to move all that can (a holkan and an archer in circus) into the stack heading west.
in reserve (circus chop) so that can make an extra for next turn if things go horribly wrong. I also want to move all that can (a holkan and an archer in circus) into the stack heading west.
Indiansmoke
Deity
Hmm they can see us now yes. I forgot to mention the tile to move to...never mind..they will lose city anyway 
Attacking with 32% I don't like though and they are charismatic as well. So I say move the tririme on the clam and get another tririme with the hammer overflow so theri tririome has no chance wherever it goes next turn.
BTW start teching compass with Mavs this turn IMO and then Mavs go )% to give Merlot cash fopr optics..
Attacking with 32% I don't like though and they are charismatic as well. So I say move the tririme on the clam and get another tririme with the hammer overflow so theri tririome has no chance wherever it goes next turn.
BTW start teching compass with Mavs this turn IMO and then Mavs go )% to give Merlot cash fopr optics..
slaze
Deity
All right, overflow into another trireme, that'll probably make them go further East and you'll kill it next turn with the fresh trireme and galley.
I'll move, the holkan + archer onto the stack too
I'll move, the holkan + archer onto the stack too
slaze
Deity
Rolled both turns over. Circus had so much whip lately in went into unhappy with after the holkan+archer. These turns are a lot easier to play consecutively rather than once in a while. oh well
Amazon Soldiers apparently just jumped up by 18000. There is also a simultaneous population growth of 130000 for Amazons (assuming they are second in population) and no whipping is detectable from Civstats. This growth cannot be achieved with any single city growth and as far as I can figure it out, there is no two or three city growth option that would account for the whole population growth. So if I'm not mistaken, at least four Amazon cities grew last turn which accounts for 2000 soldiers. That gives a probable 16000 actual soldiers growth.
The worst case scenario: a Maceman and a Crossbow Man. However, since no whipping apparently took place my guess is that neither was built in the new city and would not have enough time to get there before our stack.
The worst case scenario: a Maceman and a Crossbow Man. However, since no whipping apparently took place my guess is that neither was built in the new city and would not have enough time to get there before our stack.
slaze
Deity
No, there's whipping on civstats. They whipped away one pop twice: nabaxo, 10/21/10
OK, my bad. Somehow I managed to miss that. Is the screencap before or after the whip? If it is after, then it's almost impossible to estimate how many cities grew. This means maximum of 20000 unit based soldier growth. However, i believe my main conclusions hold. There is a maximum of two significant units built last turn (either Crossbow or Mace) and since there is no Amazon whipping in turn 104 (if I did not miss something again 
) neither was built in the target city.
) neither was built in the target city.Indiansmoke
Deity
Amazon army revealed, it is 4 maces and 2 crossbows...we re not taking that city anytime soon unless they be silly enough to fall into our mini trap next turn.
On the bright side that city the build is useless other than serving as a canal.
On the bright side that city the build is useless other than serving as a canal.
i somehow cant really help/say much for the mav. cities and planning stuff cause the info whats going on there is a little bit thin (no criticism intended, i think its great you keep it going, but helping/participating without beeing able to check the save is almost impossible without some screens / basic infos)
-> so my 2 cents without further infos:
what became of the mav. plan to do some harm with elephants and theo? it would still be a decent army if we could whip some army in our new cities and send some of them to the central city shock eles + crossbows + some catas are still an ugly combo, no matter if the enemy has maces/pikes
-> want to throw in if researching hbr + construction isnt such a bad plan? you controll 2 teams, so researching 2 techs is faster then researching 1 big tech and it shouldnt take that long (5-7 turns maybe even for mavs. with some specialists hired here and there)
getting some army towards your lands from the mav cities also might be something to consider. you cant hold everything, but with all pooled into a somehow big army, you can do quite some damage to at least 1 team (that was what team mav. had planned after the 4 vs 2 was obvious)
-> so my 2 cents without further infos:
what became of the mav. plan to do some harm with elephants and theo? it would still be a decent army if we could whip some army in our new cities and send some of them to the central city shock eles + crossbows + some catas are still an ugly combo, no matter if the enemy has maces/pikes
-> want to throw in if researching hbr + construction isnt such a bad plan? you controll 2 teams, so researching 2 techs is faster then researching 1 big tech and it shouldnt take that long (5-7 turns maybe even for mavs. with some specialists hired here and there)
getting some army towards your lands from the mav cities also might be something to consider. you cant hold everything, but with all pooled into a somehow big army, you can do quite some damage to at least 1 team (that was what team mav. had planned after the 4 vs 2 was obvious)
Even for a channel the city is a bit poorly placed. If you are willing to build practically useless city anyway, why not build it two west from their location and build a fort SW of that to connect every fjord with each other. That way they'd be able to trade resources with everyone in the alliance. This reminds me, has Mavericks declared war on everyone in the alliance to cut the trade routest between north and south?
Personally I believe it could be well worth it especially if we settle SE of our Triremes current position and improve the phants for Merlot as well (that would need some serious defence though). I also believe now is our only window of opportunity to try and pull off an offensive of any greater significance. For the rest of the game we will most likely be in the wrong end of the stick.
Especially now that we have control of two teams, I'd bet that there is no way of someone defection to our side without some... ahem, persuasion. Therefore I believe even more that we should start ruining someone elses game as well and make sure they know, what's going on. IMO, that only realistic way of having even a slight change of winning is convincing someone that sticking with the alliance is practically suicide for them.
IMO it's not a bad plan. The thing is that for researching what the evil alliance already has, we get 20 % beaker bonus. At the current pace this means somewhere around 25 - 30 beakers per turn for Merlot and probably something at the same ballpark for Mavericks as well. So 5 turns of researching something that our enemies don't have already essentially means 200 - 300 beakers less. The real question here is, is it worth it?
Personally I believe it could be well worth it especially if we settle SE of our Triremes current position and improve the phants for Merlot as well (that would need some serious defence though). I also believe now is our only window of opportunity to try and pull off an offensive of any greater significance. For the rest of the game we will most likely be in the wrong end of the stick.
Especially now that we have control of two teams, I'd bet that there is no way of someone defection to our side without some... ahem, persuasion. Therefore I believe even more that we should start ruining someone elses game as well and make sure they know, what's going on. IMO, that only realistic way of having even a slight change of winning is convincing someone that sticking with the alliance is practically suicide for them.
Hi all. Your newest servant here.
I'll probably won't take active role, but sometimes I might not be able to resist to comment although you might find them stupid because of my incomplete knowledge of the situation.
I've taken a short glimpse at your threads. Based on that I think only thing I really could comment is diplomacy and maybe tech paths.
It seems to me that diplomacy is only front that could bring you really back in the game or at least give more opportunities to have more fun with our neighbours
. Have you decided that it isn't worth it anymore or do you think there would be someone to help us, if the price is right? I personally would be willing to offer a lot, if we could get a deal out from CDZ so that we could focus on other directions. CDZ has way lower Score than rest of the nations in alliance. Why is this? Are they lacking techs?
We could also consider, if freeing Mavericks back to sovereign nation would be beneficial in diplo front, although in practice this might be hard since some of the players might had to go there. Controlling 2 nations will probably make it harder to get a real deal from other nations. (oops cross-post with Aivoturso)
Techwise I like the idea to skip Construction+HBR, when you've other more pressing needs. Time window for offensive with WEs, X-bows and cats is narrow when tech trading is on. It would make more sense, if you need WEs+cats defensively. I see that you're heading to Astro and probably head to Chemistry after that. Do you plan to fight with Galleons against East Indiemans or do you give up the control of the seas until you get to Chemistry. It seems to me that your mainland cities are 5 tiles away from your capital so it might be hard to keep the support lines up even if you manage to generate Navigation I Galleons.
btw. Netherlands is sick nation in this setup. Everyone else should be very worried and intrested in what we've to offer.
I'll probably won't take active role, but sometimes I might not be able to resist to comment although you might find them stupid because of my incomplete knowledge of the situation.
I've taken a short glimpse at your threads. Based on that I think only thing I really could comment is diplomacy and maybe tech paths.
It seems to me that diplomacy is only front that could bring you really back in the game or at least give more opportunities to have more fun with our neighbours
. Have you decided that it isn't worth it anymore or do you think there would be someone to help us, if the price is right? I personally would be willing to offer a lot, if we could get a deal out from CDZ so that we could focus on other directions. CDZ has way lower Score than rest of the nations in alliance. Why is this? Are they lacking techs? We could also consider, if freeing Mavericks back to sovereign nation would be beneficial in diplo front, although in practice this might be hard since some of the players might had to go there. Controlling 2 nations will probably make it harder to get a real deal from other nations. (oops cross-post with Aivoturso)
Techwise I like the idea to skip Construction+HBR, when you've other more pressing needs. Time window for offensive with WEs, X-bows and cats is narrow when tech trading is on. It would make more sense, if you need WEs+cats defensively. I see that you're heading to Astro and probably head to Chemistry after that. Do you plan to fight with Galleons against East Indiemans or do you give up the control of the seas until you get to Chemistry. It seems to me that your mainland cities are 5 tiles away from your capital so it might be hard to keep the support lines up even if you manage to generate Navigation I Galleons.
btw. Netherlands is sick nation in this setup. Everyone else should be very worried and intrested in what we've to offer.
some points:
1.
if mav. isnt at war with the other teams, i would leave it as it is. we need some more precious time to build up the mav. nation (granaries, baracks...)
2.
about the tech issue:
so what? we loose some 200-300 beakers... ...well... ...
... ...does the merlot team-players really share the opinion that team merlot will be able to compete with 4 other teams tech-wise on the long run?
-> our only possible timewindow to do at least SOME damage is now... ...like i have mentioned some times already, cats, phants, cbows stand decent against most they could throw at us. add some knights later and even grens can be faced. only rifles / cannons are deadly to us but they are still a bit off. and IF we have an army and hit the allied nations, they cant tech like mad cause they have to worry about defending.
-> as it is, we are only forced to react. if we could get an army out in a somehow timly manner, we can force them at least for some turns to react...
-> the mav. empire is build up to have 4-6 (no idea how many it became in the end) cities on the mainland to pump (whip, whip, whip) out phants under theo (shock eles), tanking eco. completely but going down with a big bang (maybe backed with some catas and cbows). if we can take the center of the map and establish traderoutes between mav. and merlot, we will live somewhat longer. also we can throw what we have on one of the allies, which will be fun. also we can use an army as "strat. asset" maybe
btw. what do we need to bulb astro? 2 scientists we could breed somewhere in mav.land so we can do that later
Well, techincally only difference between war and peace now is that declaring party cannot attack the turn they declare, right? I'd be surprised if that made any difference in whether we have enough time to build up the defences or not. On the other hand, the free luxuries they can trade can make difference. Though I must admit it's a bit late to do anything about that since the alliance probably will have Astro quite soon and blocking trade, is not possible for us anymore.
I realize that I was not completely clear on my viewpoint. I put the price tag for the elephant plan for a basis of discussion. Personally I support the idea of trampling around with the phants for a bit before going down completely. Actually I believe that the only way of breaking the alliance at this point is to pick a target and make it clear that we can harm them so much that they are done for almost immediately after we perish. Or we could just hurt the team we like the least just for the heck of it Anyway, I agree that about now is the only time when we can make a lasting impact on the game. Doing anything less, would mean just relying solely on the change that some team grows weary of the alliance or of the game.
I realize that I was not completely clear on my viewpoint. I put the price tag for the elephant plan for a basis of discussion. Personally I support the idea of trampling around with the phants for a bit before going down completely. Actually I believe that the only way of breaking the alliance at this point is to pick a target and make it clear that we can harm them so much that they are done for almost immediately after we perish. Or we could just hurt the team we like the least just for the heck of it
Anyway, I agree that about now is the only time when we can make a lasting impact on the game. Doing anything less, would mean just relying solely on the change that some team grows weary of the alliance or of the game.Indiansmoke
Deity
Precious time? You think that Quatronia will not declare when they are ready? Sirious already declared BTW.
some points:
2.
about the tech issue:
so what? we loose some 200-300 beakers... ...well... ...
The Merlot team has decided, wise and brave as we are, that our only hope is to hold on as long as we can as the alliance might break at some point. If it does and we are allive and kicking then great, if it does not then at least we will know we gave it our best shot.
During this time our best bet to keep as less far at tech as possible is to tech techs they already have to gain some beackers, and we believe every beacker counts!
Our only possible time window is now...
...well now you don't have a single unit Snaaty, where have you been? While you have been fantasizing of an army we have been building and so has Amazon.So when you start making an army, that is slave granaries and then barracks and then the army to get your shock phants it will be 25 turns from now! In 25 turns galleons will be travelling the seas full of units...and half your cities will be already gone!
some points:
-> the mav. empire is build up to have 4-6 (no idea how many it became in the end) cities on the mainland to pump (whip, whip, whip) out phants under theo (shock eles), tanking eco. completely but going down with a big bang (maybe backed with some catas and cbows). if we can take the center of the map and establish traderoutes between mav. and merlot, we will live somewhat longer. also we can throw what we have on one of the allies, which will be fun. also we can use an army as "strat. asset" maybe
btw. what do we need to bulb astro? 2 scientists we could breed somewhere in mav.land so we can do that later
We figured you might be cluless as to your situation so we made a thread for you and called it The west colony, there you will find screens of your lands and I am sure Slaze will try to update it after every turn.
Trade route through the center, another big
Going down with a bang...who exactly are you planning to bang on? Through the center to someone 25 turns from now? Who do you think you are playing against? The ai?
Astro would be nice to bulb but if you had checked then you would know that other techs are in the bulb path first!
So check the screens, both mav's and ours, think abit and then come back and tell us again what you think!
Zorag
Chieftain
O wise and powerful king, be merciful of your clueless servants for they know not what they say.
I'm sure snaty has all the best hopes and intentions, but even if a bit off with his ideas he should not feel punished for expressing his thoughts.
I will have to agree with our mighty king (like there ever was a choice) with regards to the fact that attempting an attack using a quickly put together force of phants etc would be a complete waste of time and energy. By the time they reach their target our enemies will have crushed us.
Best regards,
A humble servant
PS @snaaty: I want to get it through that although the king's reply is spartan like the input is welcome. We need to get ideas right and left to see if we can't pull the rabbit out of the hat.
I'm sure snaty has all the best hopes and intentions, but even if a bit off with his ideas he should not feel punished for expressing his thoughts.
I will have to agree with our mighty king (like there ever was a choice) with regards to the fact that attempting an attack using a quickly put together force of phants etc would be a complete waste of time and energy. By the time they reach their target our enemies will have crushed us.
Best regards,
A humble servant
PS @snaaty: I want to get it through that although the king's reply is spartan like the input is welcome. We need to get ideas right and left to see if we can't pull the rabbit out of the hat.
@ indiansmoke:
i dont agree with your points, but i guess this is already obvious.
i still think its best to go construction + hbr now and to raise a mixed army of what i named above. we cant stop their gallons, even if we have our own, cause the eastindian gallons simply kill ours + they are faster (trading posts from the wikings). so where´s the point in trying?
loosing cities on the mav. side isnt what concerns me right now. the mavs have some cities of minor importance. getting some pressure up on the allies from the mav. side is what might make the difference for merlot empire surviving or not.
the mav. empire never was build to be cottaged up or with cities that should grow big. it´s best operated with cities having 3 food rich tiles, doing 2 pop whips from pop 4 -> pop 2, putting overflow into something else. i´m pretty familiar with the screens btw...
done right, we can have an army big enough withing 15-20 turns that cant be destroyed by one of the allies alone. use them to raze the cities on the central continent of one of the allies (althought you think i dont know what im talking about mp wise... ...i do). i simply dont mind the mavs. loosing cities in the process. as long as 1 city stands, our army can keep going (if merlot can pay for it). problem most players in mp games have, when faced with war, is that they want to cling to all their cities. if you are on the loosing side, forget about your cities, get an army out fast, whip like crazy (we have police state also), do as much damage to the agressor as you can. like this you can at least make sure who also wont win
and mavs. declaring war speeds doom. our neighbours will build up their army faster, cause right now they have none and are not too earger in building up any. keep in mind that there are 4 different teams, all wanting to win with the least effort (so if others are doing the fighting, most wont complain)
the alliance will not crumble as long as you live or at least as long as one of them doesnt takes significant hits (at least that´s my opinion)
-> i´m not too familiar with your team organisation. but i already found out that you have a monarchy and you are king. if i´m going to get catapulted or anything similar for voicing my opinion here, feel free to do so (and send me a pm if it´s not in the spirit of the team)
i dont agree with your points, but i guess this is already obvious.
i still think its best to go construction + hbr now and to raise a mixed army of what i named above. we cant stop their gallons, even if we have our own, cause the eastindian gallons simply kill ours + they are faster (trading posts from the wikings). so where´s the point in trying?
loosing cities on the mav. side isnt what concerns me right now. the mavs have some cities of minor importance. getting some pressure up on the allies from the mav. side is what might make the difference for merlot empire surviving or not.
the mav. empire never was build to be cottaged up or with cities that should grow big. it´s best operated with cities having 3 food rich tiles, doing 2 pop whips from pop 4 -> pop 2, putting overflow into something else. i´m pretty familiar with the screens btw...
done right, we can have an army big enough withing 15-20 turns that cant be destroyed by one of the allies alone. use them to raze the cities on the central continent of one of the allies (althought you think i dont know what im talking about mp wise... ...i do). i simply dont mind the mavs. loosing cities in the process. as long as 1 city stands, our army can keep going (if merlot can pay for it). problem most players in mp games have, when faced with war, is that they want to cling to all their cities. if you are on the loosing side, forget about your cities, get an army out fast, whip like crazy (we have police state also), do as much damage to the agressor as you can. like this you can at least make sure who also wont win
and mavs. declaring war speeds doom. our neighbours will build up their army faster, cause right now they have none and are not too earger in building up any. keep in mind that there are 4 different teams, all wanting to win with the least effort (so if others are doing the fighting, most wont complain)
the alliance will not crumble as long as you live or at least as long as one of them doesnt takes significant hits (at least that´s my opinion)
-> i´m not too familiar with your team organisation. but i already found out that you have a monarchy and you are king. if i´m going to get catapulted or anything similar for voicing my opinion here, feel free to do so (and send me a pm if it´s not in the spirit of the team)
Indiansmoke
Deity
Snaaty it is not that I don't like input and thoughts from everyone, but when you come new in Merlot forums and start using and about our strategy choices then you will get the response you did.
Now on what you say. Construction of course we will get but optics is a priority since we belive that caravels can outnumber and sink galleons. Of course not the dutch galleons...
HBR is nice for elephants, only problem is that Merlot has no elephants, not yet at least..
Now on the slaving a stack and going through the center to take revenge on someone, while leaving your cities undefended to be taken by sea attacks, I don't know what to say.
My philosophy is to fight and try to survive as long as possible in the hope that the alliance will break at some point...and at the same time keep an empire that will be of some use when and if the alliance breaks.
So while you want suicide I want defence and survival and maxed teching possibilities to try and keep as close as possible.
Finnaly, what I want from discussions here is constructive thinking on how both Mavs and Merlot can tech faster, develope better, defend better or even attack under the right circumstances.
In my mind we are still fighting for something, I am not ready to give up.
and about our strategy choices then you will get the response you did.Now on what you say. Construction of course we will get but optics is a priority since we belive that caravels can outnumber and sink galleons. Of course not the dutch galleons...
HBR is nice for elephants, only problem is that Merlot has no elephants, not yet at least..
Now on the slaving a stack and going through the center to take revenge on someone, while leaving your cities undefended to be taken by sea attacks, I don't know what to say.
My philosophy is to fight and try to survive as long as possible in the hope that the alliance will break at some point...and at the same time keep an empire that will be of some use when and if the alliance breaks.
So while you want suicide I want defence and survival and maxed teching possibilities to try and keep as close as possible.
Finnaly, what I want from discussions here is constructive thinking on how both Mavs and Merlot can tech faster, develope better, defend better or even attack under the right circumstances.
In my mind we are still fighting for something, I am not ready to give up.
Indiansmoke
Deity
In order to keep discussions focused I have created a seperate thread for discussing Maveric strategies, so in this thread please keep to Merlot strategy discussions.
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