Tradition's 4 cities opening

[Fire0rb]

I get a bit confused on the language regarding your resource priority - could you please clarify it?

And what's your tech order for this start?

When i got it correctly (i am from europe so no access to BNW yet :S) you can still trade for gpt with the AI normally but they changed the rates.
You get for 1 strategic ressource 1gpt and for 1 lux 5-6gpt.
Still i dont see why you should prioritizy strategic resources over Lux improvements, because you would need a 6 Iron field to get the same gpt from the AI in comparison to the lux trade...but we will see

 

[Streams]

When i got it correctly (i am from europe so no access to BNW yet :S) you can still trade for gpt with the AI normally but they changed the rates.
You get for 1 strategic ressource 1gpt and for 1 lux 5-6gpt.
Still i dont see why you should prioritizy strategic resources over Lux improvements, because you would need a 6 Iron field to get the same gpt from the AI in comparison to the lux trade...but we will see

Because on a lump sum trade you get:

Luxuries: 240G, which actually means 8GPT. The loss is 2 (or 3) gpt, meaning 60G (90G).

Strategic: 45G = 1,5GPT. But you can sell 3 for 4 GPT, which makes the loss of only 0,5GPT, meaning only 15G.

A x6 Strategic pool will net you 8 GPT, as opposed to a 5 or 6 gpt from the luxury.

A luxury will have though the +1 gpt on the tile, but that still doesn't cover the whole difference between the two. A helper here might be the extra happiness, for Liberty, or if there are way more luxuries from the same tech.

This is true if you don't get quick friends. If you do, get the luxury first (only if the other nation has the money).

PS: I'm also waiting for tomorrow.

 

[Txurce]

Because on a lump sum trade you get:

Luxuries: 240G, which actually means 8GPT. The loss is 2 (or 3) gpt, meaning 60G (90G).

Strategic: 45G = 1,5GPT. But you can sell 3 for 4 GPT, which makes the loss of only 0,5GPT, meaning only 15G.

A x6 Strategic pool will net you 8 GPT, as opposed to a 5 or 6 gpt from the luxury.

A luxury will have though the +1 gpt on the tile, but that still doesn't cover the whole difference between the two. A helper here might be the extra happiness, for Liberty, or if there are way more luxuries from the same tech.

This is true if you don't get quick friends. If you do, get the luxury first (only if the other nation has the money).

The loss only matters to your ego. All that counts is how much you put in your pocket, so if you ignore the meaningless notion of a "bad deal," the comparison is luxury vs resource gpt. (Never mind a DOF, which tilts the equation further toward luxury.) Unless you pocket more from one resource site than from a luxury, the advantage in one over the other is which improved resource is more useful to you at that moment (copper mine vs cotton plantation vs iron mine vs horse pasture).

 

[davydave]

salut Tabarnak ! je me suis inscrit ici juste pour toi!

so for my English fellow i try the opening at King whit french and marathon whit the new expansion BNW.

my settler was placed near orange ressource.


but i collect only 3 or 4 gold per turn and i cannot afford settler really fast... too much slow.

 

[Sequm]

salut Tabarnak ! je me suis inscrit ici juste pour toi!

so for my English fellow i try the opening at King whit french and marathon whit the new expansion BNW.

my settler was placed near orange ressource.


but i collect only 3 or 4 gold per turn and i cannot afford settler really fast... too much slow.

Salut! Ça va? <I don't want to mess up, so I'll stop there.

That's what everyone has been saying, how the AI is poor, and only has GPT now. You can wait for someone to adjust/update this, or feel free to try yourself. But it seems building settlers will become more common now...

 

[Browd]

A x6 Strategic pool will net you 8 GPT, as opposed to a 5 or 6 gpt from the luxury.

A luxury will have though the +1 gpt on the tile, but that still doesn't cover the whole difference between the two. A helper here might be the extra happiness, for Liberty, or if there are way more luxuries from the same tech.

This is true if you don't get quick friends. If you do, get the luxury first (only if the other nation has the money).

The loss only matters to your ego. All that counts is how much you put in your pocket, so if you ignore the meaningless notion of a "bad deal," the comparison is luxury vs resource gpt. (Never mind a DOF, which tilts the equation further toward luxury.) Unless you pocket more from one resource site than from a luxury, the advantage in one over the other is which improved resource is more useful to you at that moment (copper mine vs cotton plantation vs iron mine vs horse pasture).

The problem in the early turns of a BNW game is that the AI often doesn't have 5 gpt (the going rate for a luxury with a non-Friend). Let's take the case where no AI is generating more than 2-3 gpt (and others are at 0 gpt or -1/-2 gpt), AND you have the choice of improving a luxury or a 4-horse tile. The improved luxury will provide 1 additional gpt (if the tile is worked), but there may be no buyers. Instead, you could improve the horse tile first and sell 2 horses to one AI for 2 gpt and 2 more to another for another 2 gpt, and then improve the luxury, by which time some AI may actually have the gpt to buy it.

 

[Tabarnak]

salut Tabarnak ! je me suis inscrit ici juste pour toi!

so for my English fellow i try the opening at King whit french and marathon whit the new expansion BNW.

my settler was placed near orange ressource.


but i collect only 3 or 4 gold per turn and i cannot afford settler really fast... too much slow.

Salut!

Early exploration is very important. The difference between hitting 30 gold instead of 15 when you contact cs(not much difference under marathon though), quantity of ruins, rapidity of contacting AI and therefore selling stuff and possibly get a DoF later are things you should counsider to give yourself the best chances possible.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Early exploration is very important.

Extrêmement! Les luxures c'est le pouvoir!

You need to work luxuries ASAP. You want to know your surrounding to find more luxuries, more of the same (to sell) and more kinds (for yourself). As you'll read many places here, sell them early and don't worry about too much.

Gold = settlers + workers + bowmen => power. Work food tiles to grow when happy, work hammer tiles when you are not.

Scout in straight lines, tout droit, east and west with your scouts to find buyers. Scout around your location with your starting warrior to find neighbors and settling spots (that also keeps your army close to home in case of barbs).

 

[Createk]

Tabarnak cant wait for some BNW openings / strategies guides from you

 

[Steeeeeve]

n00b question here:
I'm playing on BNW, and I'm trying to do your 4-city opener, but nobody wants to buy my stuff because they're all like "Hey, I won't give you money unless we make a declaration of friendship. Also, you're a nerd, so I don't want to be friends yet."
Is this a BNW thing? Or did I just miss something in your videos?

Thanks for any help!~

 

[Buccaneer]

n00b question here:
I'm playing on BNW, and I'm trying to do your 4-city opener, but nobody wants to buy my stuff because they're all like "Hey, I won't give you money unless we make a declaration of friendship. Also, you're a nerd, so I don't want to be friends yet."
Is this a BNW thing? Or did I just miss something in your videos?

Thanks for any help!~

Yes, it is a BNW thing. You can't get a lump sum (i.e., 240 gold) for a luxury unless you have a Declaration of Friendship. In the meantime, you can trade it for 6 gold/turn. To get a Declaration of Friendship, don't do anything hostile toward that civ and when you get your first caravan/cargo ship, set up a trade route with them. They will usually initiate a Friendship request soon after, unless they are building up lots of units to take you out (like Huns, Japan, Zulus).

 

[bhavv]

I'm finding it too hard to pull off pure tradition opener without the left side of liberty thrown in to get the 4 cities up faster. 3 full price settlers is just too much cost early on, and with trading for lump sums being nerfed it makes it even harder.

I want to do Tradition and Rationalism only plus either Piety / Aesthetics / Patronage based on whichever strategy I'm using, but without collective rule it takes far too long to set up.

 

[Resipsa]

I'm finding it too hard to pull off pure tradition opener without the left side of liberty thrown in to get the 4 cities up faster. 3 full price settlers is just too much cost early on, and with trading for lump sums being nerfed it makes it even harder.

I want to do Tradition and Rationalism only plus either Piety / Aesthetics / Patronage based on whichever strategy I'm using, but without collective rule it takes far too long to set up.

This guide is for GNK not BNW, however I have had significant success using Sweden on Deity and replicating a 4 city turn 60Tradition opening. The reason is that I am convinced after 4 games with Sweden is that the AI purposely uses your UA and will offer DOF as soon as they complete an early wonder. Double or triple scout to get out and meet everyone and exchange embassies and you'll be able to get early lump sum trades.

What I wouldn't do is dip into Tradition and Liberty unless you're Poland. The cost of each new policy increases exponentially and you are cutting into your Tradition finisher, and other useful policy trees by dipping into both trees.

If you are another civ simply try and get 2 cities before and early NC and then adding two more prior to turn 100 seems to be the safest way to play Tradition these days.

 

[bhavv]

But I want those wonders that the AI would be building!

I hate the idea of playing Sweden and having to rely on DoFs for the UA to work, I don't believe that the AI are any more likely to sign them if you play as Sweden.

 

[kb27787]

But I want those wonders that the AI would be building!

I hate the idea of playing Sweden and having to rely on DoFs for the UA to work, I don't believe that the AI are any more likely to sign them if you play as Sweden.

I know the feeling man I know the feeling...
It's OK to go with 2 or 3 cities in BnW I find even on deity you should win comfortably (now only a handful of civs can do OCC deity, but any civ can do two cities)
Although if you want early wonders except Oracle or Pyras, don't expand until maybe t80 or so


All in all I think 4 cities leads to a quicker win, but 3 cities leads to an easier win (assuming you don't lose); when I mean easier I mean the decisions you have to make are more obvious, and you have a lot of margin for error, since you are floating on 20+ happiness or so midgame almost all the time and can afford to use your luxes for bribes or gold... no need to trade lux for lux unless for quests or capitol WLtKD. 2 cities is very tricky to win with though.

Keep in mind a 4th city raises you research by probably 300-400 pts endgame (with the advent of trade routes, the gold part is negligible) and you get a free aqueduct and monument with it, and you can train units from it. It will invariably make your empire unhappier as it grows (unless it connects 4 luxes you don't have) and culture policies will be just a bit more expensive... so do not expect to have your 2nd golden age anytime soon with this strat (tried it... 3 cities get their 2nd golden age easily twice as fast) if you play for CV you want those artworks so you won't be spending your GA on golden ages...

 

[JustinianIV]

Is anyone else still using this opener on BNW? I've been using it since BNW came out, and it seems to be effective. Of course it might take a bit longer.

 

[Syntax Error]

You can't pull this off to the letter in BNW, because rivers lost the GPT. Settling in luxes is still good (no turns wasted improving the thing, which is crucial to your economy in the early game), but you can no longer trade for lump sum from the get-go. This means that if you actually want to expand fast, you have to build your settlers.

About the only thing I do now aligned to this would be Scout->Worker, which is quite flexible, for the most part.

 

[JustinianIV]

You can't pull this off to the letter in BNW, because rivers lost the GPT. Settling in luxes is still good (no turns wasted improving the thing, which is crucial to your economy in the early game), but you can no longer trade for lump sum from the get-go. This means that if you actually want to expand fast, you have to build your settlers.

About the only thing I do now aligned to this would be Scout->Worker, which is quite flexible, for the most part.

Yes, true. It needs to be adapted. I do need to build at least one settler.

 

[Lokos451]

Tabarnak has already posted in this same subforum a version of this strat to utilize trade routes and grow three cities instead of four.

Check it out, it's necro'd down there somewhere!

 

[Resipsa]

But I want those wonders that the AI would be building!

I hate the idea of playing Sweden and having to rely on DoFs for the UA to work, I don't believe that the AI are any more likely to sign them if you play as Sweden.

-You can't get those wonders on deity anyway
-That's sort of the point of playing Sweden well at least one successful way.
-Well I've played 4 deity games with Sweden in BNW and if I have an embassy with the AI as soon as they get the GL SH or any other wonder that has GP points they have offered DOF within 1 or 2 turns. It may be coincidental but barring evidence that it is coincidental and not coded into AI behavior that's what I chose to believe