TSG 241 After Actions Thread

[Nizef]

In this thread you can post the results of your game. Please state your victory/loss date (preferably in the post title) and describe your path to glory in this post! Players are encouraged to provide feedback on the game.

- Did you play peacefully or warlike? Did you use your UU?
- What technologies did you prioritize?
- What Social Policies did you choose and in what order? Which Ideology did you choose?
- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

Potential diplomatic victory turn I'm-not-sure-I-want-to-wait-that-long.

I missed the vote by a hair, so now it's 25 turns of waiting :-(. First I thought I was one scientist short (possibly I still am), so I entered a random vote for the congress (international games so everyone would keep liking me). Then I noticed I still had one scientist in Assur! Ashurbanipal had built the Porcelain Tower, so he had some scientist points going already. However, despite having 10661 of 9504 beakers, I did not get the tech. Despite thousands of hours into the game, I never did figure out exactly when you get a tech or not when you bulb a scientist.

The game went quite well. I did decide to do some frigating, and captured Assur which had all the wonders, and then Umgungundlovu which had built Petra. At that point I could have kept going (the promotions were starting to come along), but everyone still liked me (even Shaka and Ashurbanipal), so I decided to pull in my horns and focus on the victory condition. I needn't have bothered in the end. If I would replay, it's likely there are many small things I could have done better, but one different decision would suffice: I should not have bought an engineer for Statue of Liberty. I could not stomach a 12-turn build, but I also didn't really need it.

Also, my idea of opening Commerce and building Big Ben in order to buy labs was too late and too slow. In the end I bought two labs without any discount (I knew I was cutting the science close), one with a ~200 gold discount, and I built two.

It's a shame I messed up the late game this way. The early game was quite lucky, and, I felt, quite strong. Next game better I suppose, although this is not the first something similar has happened with diplomatic victory attempts.

Finally, I present to you the wonders of Assur:

 

[vadalaz]

I never did figure out exactly when you get a tech or not when you bulb a scientist.

You get the tech when (GS bulb value + current tech progress) exceeds the tech cost. The problem is that overflow can look exactly like tech progress, but they aren't actually the same thing

Let's say tech A that costs 8000 beakers, and tech B that costs 10000, and your bulb value is 9000. Consider this scenario:

Turn 1: You're currently researching tech A, you have already put 7900 beakers into it, and you're making 1500 per turn
Turn 2: You've finished tech A and now have 1400 overflow, but zero actual progress towards tech B. The game will say 1400 out of 10000, but if you open the tech tree, it'll say that for every other unknown tech as well. This overflow has not actually been assigned to any tech yet.

If you bulb your scientist now, you'll put 9000 beakers into tech B. This is less than the tech cost, so you don't get the tech B immediately, eventhough the game will now show tech progress as 10400 of 10000, while it really is 9000 of 10000 and 1400 overflow.

If you had two scientists and bulbed tech A on turn 1, you'd immediately get the tech and 8900 overflow*. Then if you bulbed another GS into tech B on the same turn, you'd put 9000 towards the tech, and still have the same 8900 overflow from before, so the game would show tech progress as 17900 of 10000.

*edit, minor correction: you'd actually hit the overflow cap in this case and get less than 8900

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

Thanks, @vadalaz learned something new today

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

I did finish the game (mostly end-turning does not take that long), for a T250 victory screen. Was it worth it going frigates and taking Assur and Umgun...? Probably not, but look at those hammers!

 

[sebtanic]

Won turn 259.

Completely peaceful game until 1 turn before I won.

I never got DOWed. I payed Shaka ASAP to DOW Assyria, he just wanted 1 Cotton. Then when he made peace, I had him DOW someone else and so on so he was permanently at war with someone else. All the Civs were continuously at each others throats, but most of them were friendly with me most of the time.
I didn't build a single land unit except the initial scout Got a few units from allied CS though, and built some ships and planes for protection. Don't know if they were needed because no one ever attempted to invade me, but they may have served as a deterrent.

I also didn't build any roads all game, nor railroads. I even automated some workers and they didn't build roads either. I guess they somehow knew that my cities were already connected by harbors.

Notes from the early game
Initial BO: Scout, Monument, Shrine, Granary, Library, Settler
Ruins on our continent: Spear, 80g, 20cult, pop, map
Ruins on continents to the south: Scarcher, 60faith, pop, map, 20cult, 85g

Policies: Full Tradition, Full Patronage, 3 in Rationalism (left side), 3 in Freedom, Commerce opener (I don't remember the exact order but completed Tradition first)

Timeline
t55 took Fertility Rites pantheon (+10% food)
t112 NC
t150 lost Forbidden Palace to Isabella, 3 turns left
t176 Porcelain Tower
t222 Oxford -> Plastics -> Tech lead
t230 Cristo Redentor (GE'd)
t237 Statue of Liberty
t241 reached Atomic Era, started popping my 4 saved GS to quickly reach the next era
t244 Big Ben
t244 Telecommunications -> Information Era, 1 turn before World Congress vote
t257 DOWed Spain and Rome who had over 1000 gold each, so they wouldn't buy off my allies
t258 WL vote
t259 won

This is the first time I managed to research Telecom 1 turn before a congress vote, which triggered a world leader vote 14 turns later (the game says 11 turns but it's actually longer, because it doesn't include the turns where votes actually happen or the congress gets upgraded to UN)

After winning, I reloaded some saved games to better understand the crucial timing between reaching the Atomic and Information Eras.

Here's a detailed breakdown:
t241 Penicillin -> Atomic Era
- I got 4 GS throughout the game, and saved all of them for the end game. Started popping them after Penicillin
- The next congress vote is due in 4 turns
- As luck would have it, another GS is due in 3 turns.
- I need 4 more techs to reach Information era: Electronics, Atomic Theory, Ecology, Telecommunications
t242 a research agreement completes (gave me about 2500 beakers, wasn't really needed)
t244 natural GS spawns
- 1 turn left to congress vote, Telecom due in 3 turns. Popped telecom with the GS I just got -> Info Era
t245 UN founded
- Victory Progress screen says 11 turns left to World Leader vote
- Vote for UN host
t246
- still 11 turns left to World Leader vote
t247
- congress vote happens (World's Fair, Embargo Spain), the results of which are irrelevant for this game
- Victory Progress screen now says 10 turns left to World Leader vote
t248
- still 10 turns left
t258 Actual Word Leader vote happens
t259 I win with 41 votes (40 votes needed)
- 4 votes base
- all 15 CS allied - 30 votes (1 CS got conquered)
- 5 votes from Diplomats
- 2 from being host

All in all, I got lucky with the 5th GS spawning just in time. The RA completing on the other hand wasn't needed.

 

[Rhodro]

Just won diplo victory at turn 237 with 41 votes. Pretty happy with the result. The last 20 turns or so was just siphoning (loaning) money from my 2 friends byzantium and ottomans to get a big stack of money to buy out all the CS.
I had a lot of gold stacked up 1 turn before the vote. I bought them all out and declared war on my 2 former friends to prevent them from buying back CS. I couldn't declare war on everybody because i would lose too many diplomat votes.

I didn't get any wonder early or midgame, even lost oracle. It also took a very very long time to overtake AI in research (somewhere in Modern era i think). I even stole a lot of tech with spies.

- Did you play peacefully or warlike? Did you use your UU?
Shaka declared war on me once, I defended only to make peace with him, he never attacked a 2nd time. I lost a few cargo ships to him which was sad. I did pillage Lhasa the whole game though, got like 7 workers from them. I blocked 3 of their tiles with a worker and a crossbowman each and continuously pillaged and shot. This netted me quite a decent chunk of money that did help a little but at key moments.

- What technologies did you prioritize?
Don't remember the exact path but mostly the science track with an early sailing for trireme (i bought a few with pillage money) and the wheel for city connection money.

- What Social Policies did you choose and in what order? Which Ideology did you choose?
Didnt have that much culture, tradition -> the important rationalism policies -> some freedom policies -> patronage opener + more influence for money -> 2 in commerce, didnt make it to cheaper buying.

- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them?
5 Cities see screenshot below

Spoiler :

 

[fiddlesticks]

Picking up from the opening actions thread:

Key milestones and decisions:

138: world congress founded by Spain. Propose world's fair
139: lose Forbidden Palace
147: Open Rationalism
168: Peace Zulu. Shaka was a hoarder, so I gave him gpt for a ton of cash, bought city states and science buildings and then DoW'd him 10 turns later.
171: Propose world religion
172: Finish Porcelain Tower
173: 1st to Radio - Order turn 174 (great people and skyscrapers)
178: Free Thought
179: Workers Faculties (bulbed two GW's)
180: Win WF, DoW Shaka
186: Plastics
197: Oxford to Telecommunications, 1 turn to WC vote. I used a combo of natural GS's, 1 faith GS and research agreements to hit the mark.
200: world religion passes
210: 45/40 world leader votes.

I gained cash from Shaka's trade routes, loans and selling Ulundi to Assurbanipal.

 

[Megalou]

I wonder if this was irony from Nizef to throw me off the scent! I didn't think so before I started game 241, because I ran a few test games and was never alone on an island. Now I'm thinking yes, because even though the Zulu is a notorious neighbour, they weren't good enough seafarers to cause any ripples in the water, so to speak.

Because the Zulu beat me to Forbidden palace I decided to take them out eventually. That was very easy with battleships and a lot of time to prepare. I did not have a perpetual war with Zulu because I had the Swords into Plowshares belief and they also threatened to capture Valetta.

I played around with using mountains which resulted in some rather funny scenes, like the one with General Patton, the insane mountaineer:

I also really liked the 3D-effects of King Richard and his crew off on a crusade in...Norway?

Taking turns, workers completed the road below. I really hope the hazard pay was good, since the effort took them halfway to Death's doorstep. Will have to check with the economic advisor.

I don't know if it's common knowledge, but I was surprised to see that the Phoenician Heritage trait also gives you the railroad production bonus. That makes it even more powerful!

Result
Not that I'm nearly as fast as some players here, but this was one of the easiest deity games I have played. Being alone on the starting continent naturally lowered all risks dramatically. Secondly, the Phoenician trait is perfect for the map type. Thirdly, I got lucky with the Ideology. Usually, when you are an early adopter, you run the risk of civil dissent because other civs tend to go for Order (primarily) and Autocracy, while in a diplomacy game Freedom is the human player's no-brainer choice. But this time I was even able to comfortably secure World Ideology, and my happiness levels eventually looked like those you normally see in a prince game, although in the middle of the Zulu campaign I did come close to unhappiness.

Thanks, Ottomans.

And so I won easily on turn 292, but really need to improve my growth and research speed. I was very impressed to see that Fiddlesticks’s Carthage was size 21 as early as turn 126!

 

[fiddlesticks]

I loved how you tested out the mountain movement trait, even building a road!

 

[sebtanic]

Comparing myself to the faster players, I identified several thing I'm not doing:

- Farming a CS (I usually steal one worker then make peace)
- Early food ships to capital
- Bullying the AI for gold from trade routes or peace deals
- Quick workshops

At what time do you guys go for workshops usually? After NC or before? I normally don't research them until after Education which is probably too late

 

[Megalou]

Comparing myself to the faster players, I identified several thing I'm not doing:

- Farming a CS (I usually steal one worker then make peace)
- Early food ships to capital
- Bullying the AI for gold from trade routes or peace deals
- Quick workshops

At what time do you guys go for workshops usually? After NC or before? I normally don't research them until after Education which is probably too late

I thought such CS worker farms would ruin your relationship with them for good but I guess the trade-off is good. I enjoy fishing for barb workers but I guess that is more of a gamble.

 

[sebtanic]

I thought such CS worker farms would ruin your relationship with them for good but I guess the trade-off is good. I enjoy fishing for barb workers but I guess that is more of a gamble.

You can DOW one CS in the game without too many consequences. Once you make peace the relationship climbs again, albeit slowly from -60.

Never DOW more than one CS though, because if you do, all the CS will hate you forever. I don't remember what happens exactly but it was pretty devastating.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

@sebtanic when you say farm CS, I like to keep the war open and steal multiple workers. It requires you to be able to camp your unit two tiles away from the 'steal tile', and not on a hill, otherwise the CS can see you. Multiple workers can indeed be very important for a quick start.

I do like to go workshops before universities (with NC in between), to get production up early (same with going factories before public schools, although that is more of a gamble with having coal) although I am not sure that is really 'best'. Perhaps, like so many things in Civ, you can't say strategy A is better than B; it just depends on the situation. For example, if you need colosseums (and I did, since I put 4 cities down on the main island, and one did not have a unique luxury), then going workshops becomes a little more attractive. If you don't, and your production is decent, going universities first may get you a better timing. Seeing @fiddlesticks being so much faster than me, I do scratch my head how he accomplished that. Unis first, or still workshops first?

Coastal games are all about the internal cargo ships, in my opinion (and naval warfare, which is much easier to pull off than land warfare), and I like to try to get Colossus if I can. I did manage to get it on Deity in the past (mostly small maps though), although lately I have not gotten any wonders at all. Not even Oracle, and in this game not Mausoleum either. I don't try too hard though, I'm focused too much on getting libraries and cargo ships up, and sneaking in a trireme or two (although I don't prioritize the latter).

About early gold from trade deals and plundering AI trade routes, I think it can be powerful for really early warfare, to buy archers and chariots and get an early war rolling, but it's hard to pull off, and for a game like this not too impactful. Perhaps selling a spare luxury to a friended AI to buy a library can 'be a thing' (in Filthy's words, or was it Babayetu?).

 

[lerrocco]

You can DOW one CS in the game without too many consequences. Once you make peace the relationship climbs again, albeit slowly from -60.

Never DOW more than one CS though, because if you do, all the CS will hate you forever. I don't remember what happens exactly but it was pretty devastating.

I have some experience with this now. In my last game (TSG 238) I stole from 3 different CS during the game, as I didn't care about the warmonger penalties.

My resting point with CS went to -20 and I went from -1 per turn to -1.5 per turn to -2 per turn. Also any new CS you meet will not give you gold on first contact.

I played with farming CS workers on a few occasions. The best strategy is to DOW the CS before meeting anyone else and keep stealing workers from it. That avoids the penalties described above. (It can also be used as an xp farm for early units).

As I only play domination these penalties really don´t bother me too much, as everyone hates me anyway, the problem with farming the same CS is that it stops the scout from exploring. It's almost worth setting aside a unit just for the worker steals.. more or less T20 then T35 for the CS to produce workers? That's my guestimate.

I enjoy reading the GOTM plays, I still cant envisage learning the game beyond my limited domination runs. Gen Patton in his Willis Jeep, above, was kinda fun.

 

[sebtanic]

I do like to go workshops before universities (with NC in between), to get production up early

So are you saying you get workshops even before NC? That seems very early to me.

Or you mean you get workshops between NC and universities?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

I did not write that very clearly. I meant NC -> workshops -> universities.

 

[Rhodro]

For tradition I usually do NC -> universities -> (optional observatories if multiple mountain adjacent cities) -> workshops.
This gets science specialists faster.
If I remember correctly when doing liberty going workshops before universities is better, because you need more hammers faster because you also have to build monument and aquaduct everywhere.

Going workshops first the main benefit I see is that you might get a great engineer early that you can use for some wonder. The engineer specialist slot is also useful for cities that don't have a lot of production tiles.

 

[fiddlesticks]

I almost always go universities before workshops, but especially in diplomacy games. Sometimes I may not even build workshops in every city in diplomacy games.

In this game for example I had high population in the capital early by prioritizing sea trade routes and needed a university and writers guild asap to have those citizens doing something more useful than a 2 food 1 hammer tile (or worse).

I usually try to save the gold to immediately buy the university in the capital and maybe in an observatory city as well (if I know I’ll have the gold before I could hard build it in that case I’ll usually leave the current production in place and buy when able to).

You’ll almost never beat the AI to printing press in deity and getting an early world leader vote from atomic theory by killing off competitors isn’t going to happen either so the best strategy is to shoot for telecommunications before the second session and great scientists are much better for that than great engineers.

 

[Megalou]

You can DOW one CS in the game without too many consequences. Once you make peace the relationship climbs again, albeit slowly from -60.

Never DOW more than one CS though, because if you do, all the CS will hate you forever. I don't remember what happens exactly but it was pretty devastating.

@sebtanic when you say farm CS, I like to keep the war open and steal multiple workers. It requires you to be able to camp your unit two tiles away from the 'steal tile', and not on a hill, otherwise the CS can see you. Multiple workers can indeed be very important for a quick start.

Of course! It’s better to remain at war with the city state. I can’t believe I never thought of it.