TSG14 After Action Report

[Aaronius]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 14
Date submitted: 2011-06-17
Reference number: 24419
Your name: Aaronius
Game status: Domination Victory
Game date: 1630AD
Turns played: 236
Base score: 486
Final score: 1034
Time played: 5:50:00

Like I said in the progress thread, I didn't manage to play this game with the same discipline as the last GOTM. Having said that, I feel pretty proud of myself for slaughtering this map. Of course I'm not nearly as fast as some of you, but I think back to the China fractal GOTM and how I had to play that game four times to even win. All the way back to the Russia Island GOTM, I couldn't win it. This map was easy, I just was too lazy in my speed.

I also totally relate to all of you others that are builders at heart. I couldn't help myself and took: Natl; NC, NE, NT, HE, IW. World: Stonehenge, Angkor, Porcelin, Taj,Brandenburg, Himeji, and I was building the Louve....lol. I built all the regular and specialist buildings that made sense as well. I just couldn't justify conquering the world with a crappy capital.

My path to samurai was 10-20 turns too slow, but I had supplemental troops from a friendly militaristic CS. My SP order was tradition > liberty > worker > merit > patronage all the way to the science one > more tradition > meaningless freedom

My initial build order was largely built around the resourses, then philosophy, then whatever comes before steel, and a couple blocks. I was surprised how much money the AI had on king. I built three RAs, used meritocracy to get steel, and the RAs to get at civil service and the top half of the tree.

Spoiler :

Even though I got steel reasonably fast, I had trouble timing my war campaigns. I had money for samurais, but I just always hesitated I think. I took Khan first, then Caesar, then Napolean...all with a unified army. I'm deathly afraid of losing a single unit... Also, I can't believe that Napy didn't have tons of troops waiting for me. He was all peaceful, and even said to me when I DOWed him that I was some kind of tyrant picking on the weak!!! Really Napolean?Then I upgraded to rifles, built cannons, and split the army in two to conquer the remaining four civs on the other continents.

OCC was fast and fun. I was proud of my capital and proud of my military....well I won't say prowess, but adequacy. I HATE HATE HATE having to go to the capital to upgrade. As if making war in CivV weren't hard enough already

 

[Aaronius]

Only meritocracy is needed. The rest can come from anywhere and will not change anything if you plan to destroy everyone with Japan's UU. I went Honor for extra GG for my 3rd army but he didn't change anything. Selling luxuries, getting Steel and Astro are the 3 most important things to do.

Thanks for the insights.

Btw, is it you that loves to play on king all the time?

I was really wierded out by how much money all the AI had. Maybe something changed with the patch.

 

[Tabarnak]

Btw, is it you that loves to play on king all the time?

I almost never play singleplayer mode. I'm a multiplayer addict. I only play GOTMs and HoF games and some few personnal challenges from the S&T forum.

 

[Muaziz]

Only meritocracy is needed. The rest can come from anywhere and will not change anything if you plan to destroy everyone with Japan's UU. I went Honor for extra GG for my 3rd army but he didn't change anything. Selling luxuries, getting Steel and Astro are the 3 most important things to do.

I a replay of this game, I wanted to try Meritocracy so I started with Liberty and Citizenship (for the early Worked and a pre-req to Meritocracy).

However, when my next SP came up (I built Scout -> Monument -> Worker to start so I did have some extra Culture going), I took Honor thinking it was the right thing to do to eventually get that free Great General.

Many turns later, I find that my 2 Workers have little to do, but I remembered them being very active for a long time in my original game. That's when I realized that Tradition not only gives your Capital +3 culture/turn, it also increases the rate of border expansion. So in my original game, I was able to hook up an extra Ivory and Spices whereas it would have been far too costly to do so in this game. Also, I had to pay 100g to buy the Iron tile, but only 50g in my original game. I assume that the cost depends on how many neighboring tiles your city controls.

Since you don't really need the Great Scientist until you are ready to pop Astronomy (or Education if you have an RA coming), there's no reason to grab Meritocracy early. If I recall, Great People also have unit upkeep costs so that's another reason not to have a GP loitering in the city if you don't need them soon.

So I think in this game, going Liberty -> Collective Rule (free Worker) -> Tradition would have made more sense. And with the extra +3 Culture per turn, you can probably also squeeze in Honor and Warrior Code (free GG) while choosing the right time to insert Meritocracy. I think there's a good chance that you will get that GG before the game is over and at the very least you can pop it for a Golden Age.

Going down Patronage makes more sense if you know that the Great General from Warrior Code will be too late. You need to Ally Sidney in this game for his 6 Iron, and you probably have a second ally in this game as well just from killing Barb camps and freeing Workers you can't use.

 

[Airey]

Many turns later, I find that my 2 Workers have little to do...Also, I had to pay 100g to buy the Iron tile, but only 50g in my original game. I assume that the cost depends on how many neighboring tiles your city controls.

Just take loan and buy tiles. Buying up neighbouring tiles will make the "next ring" cheaper.

Since you don't really need the Great Scientist until you are ready to pop Astronomy (or Education if you have an RA coming), there's no reason to grab Meritocracy early. If I recall, Great People also have unit upkeep costs so that's another reason not to have a GP loitering in the city if you don't need them soon.

Sometimes need that GE/GS to bulb Steel for upgrade. Prevents RA canceling from DOWs and frees up Capital to build something else.

So I think in this game, going Liberty -> Collective Rule (free Worker) -> Tradition would have made more sense. And with the extra +3 Culture per turn...

Excellent point about early Tradition tough. Save $ from tile buying.
Considering how cheap early RAs are (200G). With the abundance of luxuries, the bottleneck is actually the # of free techs early.

With 3 RAs, GL + GS, it's possible to open up Astro and Steel by Turn 91
and start Swordsmen spamming (upgrade with Lux sale)

Spoiler :

...get that GG before the game is over and at the very least you can pop it for a Golden Age.

5th Policy doesn't come that late for the GG. Taking early detour to Tradition benefits border pop mostly. Probably most beneficial to take the 1st policy with. The free GS would come at the right time.

 

[Muaziz]

I just replayed the game from scratch with the following Social Policy plan: Liberty -> Collective Rule (free Worker) -> Tradition

My goal was to see how much the "Tradition" helped based on my previous remarks.

PS: This game ended with my best time of the four that I played with a turn 136 win (previous were: 150, 171, and 185).

Just take loan and buy tiles. Buying up neighboring tiles will make the "next ring" cheaper.

While buying Luxury tiles so you can sell them to the AIs faster is a great strat in many games, I don't think it worked well here for a couple of reasons. 1) You don't have *that* much gold to throw around. 2) With only 3 civs nearby (Caesar, Khan, and Napoleon), you don't have that many trade partners (and they might be broke at any given time).

As for taking loans, that also makes a lot of sense in most games, but I don't think it was great here due to the tight financial situation.

Sometimes need that GE/GS to bulb Steel for upgrade. Prevents RA canceling from DOWs and frees up Capital to build something else.

I think that if you plan your RAs well, you don't have to worry about early DOWs. In this particular game, my first RA was with France (no danger of DOW there) and my second one was with Khan (who I felt was sufficiently far away that he would not attack me before the RA finished). Signing an RA with Caesar could certainly be problematic.

In all my games (4 of them), I had no trouble completing my first 2 RAs by the time I was getting ready to start attacking.

I am not saying that you never want the early GS, but I don't feel like it was necessary this game.

Excellent point about early Tradition tough. Save $ from tile buying.

I really felt like Tradition was *amazing* in my last game, especially considering the alternatives. Note that I still think you want to start Liberty -> Collective Rule (free Worker) unless you can steal an early Worker (something I am not great at and need to improve on).

Compared to my previous game where I never got Tradition, I ended up getting at least 5 more really good tiles for my city (an extra Ivory, Cows, Deer, and 2 river tiles). Also, getting the extra Luxuries as a result of much faster tiles made my financial situation much better this game. I felt like I was able to buy a Workshop and a Waterwheel without feeling bad.

That being said, I should probably have only bought one or maybe even none in favor of more Swords/Samurais early. But regardless, I really felt like Tradition worked out *much* better than the alternatives.

I did end up getting Patronage as my last Social Policy since I knew I could not get the Great General in time to matter and at least Patronage helped me keep Sydney happy a little longer.

Considering how cheap early RAs are (200G). With the abundance of luxuries, the bottleneck is actually the # of free techs early.

Agreed. With the obvious danger of Caesar and Khan likely to DOW eventually. Caesar first due to the proximity.

With 3 RAs, GL + GS, it's possible to open up Astro and Steel by Turn 91 and start Swordsmen spamming (upgrade with Lux sale)

In my most recent game, I didn't get Astronomy until turn 107, but that's not what held me back. I was still working on Khan and the Iroquois at the time, and hadn't even started on the French (which I would kill last along with Russia).

My only real question is whether building the Great Library was worth it. It took 20+ turns which is a lot and that time could have been spent building Swords which would later be upgraded to Samurai.

However, if you don't build the Great Library, you do need to sign an additional RA at some point. This means you probably need a 2nd RA with France and one with the Greeks or Iroquois once you meet them. You basically need 4 RAs instead of 3. Note that I am assuming that your first 2 RAs give you Civil Service and Steel (in my case, I could not force the order, but didn't care that much). Then you either GLib to Metal Casing (or Steel/CS if you built it a little later), or you end up with double RA into Education + Astronomy. I think any other approach sets you back at least 20 turns for Astro.

I'm tempted to play a 5th game skipping the GLib to see how it plays out. But between the extra 200g/250g for the RA, and the extra cost for upgrades (since you will be making Swords while waiting on Steel), the gold revenue just might not be there for this variation to come out ahead.

5th Policy doesn't come that late for the GG. Taking early detour to Tradition benefits border pop mostly. Probably most beneficial to take the 1st policy with. The free GS would come at the right time.

I concur that the 5th policy is too late for the GG to matter.

In my last game, taking Tradition 3rd worked out beautifully. I think that if you want to take it first, you are forced to steal a worker, if you will be much further back financially due to the lack of connected resources. Keep in mind that Collective Rule also speeds up worker improvements.

 

[Tabarnak]

I just replayed the game from scratch with the following Social Policy plan: Liberty -> Collective Rule (free Worker) -> Tradition


In my last game, taking Tradition 3rd worked out beautifully.

That's what i've done. I stole a 2nd worker and improved lux tiles immediately.

 

[Muaziz]

That's what i've done. I stole a 2nd worker and improved lux tiles immediately.

What kind of Worker stealing tips and tricks do you use? My experience is that you rarely see a City-State worker until around turn 30. I really don't know if there's any math or formulas behind that other than my limited experience. Usually, you want at least one early worker (most builds start one either second or third after Scout and/or Monument depending).

I do think that in most games, if you don't steal a Worker, you will be VERY far behind the folks that do.

If I have a Warrior/Scout on the edge of a City-State border, will they be less likely to send out their Worker? I remember one game where the CS just kept their Worker in the city while I waited eagerly outside their borders. Do CSs always build workers first? If not, what do they build. When is the best time to go shopping for a free Worker? Btw, is there a good thread that discusses all of this?

 

[Tabarnak]

If I have a Warrior/Scout on the edge of a City-State border, will they be less likely to send out their Worker?

No. Only thing that prevents a worker to get out is a barbarian land unit. Don't wait the CS to kill him, do it yourself and he will free his worker.

 

[Airey]

I really felt like Tradition was *amazing* in my last game, especially considering the alternatives. Note that I still think you want to start Liberty -> Collective Rule (free Worker) unless you can steal an early Worker (something I am not great at and need to improve on).

You are spot on here. In my game, I rarely go Tradition. After reading your analysis, I realize I spent alot of money on tile buying The idea SP might be Liberity -> Collective Rule -> Tradition -> Honor

Totally agree with the GL part too After knowing the map, without the nasty mid game UU civs (India, Siam), using the early hammer on SMen (instead of GL) will speed up the winning date. Considering Iroquois and Greek can be reach without Astro, it can be researched manually. Just time it (~t120) when you need to reach the Russians and Aztec.


Anyways, this is my first playthrough summary video:

Link to video.

 

[tommynt]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 14
Date submitted: 2011-06-19
Reference number: 24434
Your name: tommynt
Game status: Domination Victory
Game date: 50BC
Turns played: 113
Base score: 173
Final score: 786
Time played: 2:00:00
Submitted save: tommynt_GOTM14_final_t113.Civ5Save
Renamed file: tommynt_C501401.Civ5Save

I am pretty OK for how this game went, military game is kinda more my taste - just kill everybody is so much more "gameing" then having to play out a long won game till all techs/cult comes in.

Pretty straightforward game - fractual map = explore + get sailing and astro asap to be able to meet everybody.
As I allways kill with LS - my military plan was just as usual - get lot of dem samurai
Moved Cap on inlandhill as in occ its even more important to have lot of tiles to use - and sea tiles are useless ...
DiD all top of tech tree 1. to be able to do some RA, well and some tricks
After thius you are allowed to sail tech I sent like 4 units around and was bit disappointed that I could not sail east even when there were 4 coastal tiles into ocean -

Well then usuall stuff RAs ...
Was bit lucky when I RAed steel as I didnt have full block on Compass
Killed rome before astro and after I did send 3 man armies (2 samurai + pike or gen or so) in all directions.
AI civs were pretty poor, only France had some - maybe I should have gave him his worker back which I did reconquer from barbs - but they had enough to at least sign RAs.

After the armies did their job they all did race who d find the last 1 first - its been the prior Mongol army - just the 1 which I sent out last. So shaving off few turn there d have been possible.

These Samurai are Kickass anyway - but Ais did really nearly only defend with warries - only Iroquis and greece did some real defending (Irou had 1 uu)

All in all I dont think I could have been lot faster without mapknowledge - and even with knowledge I might shave off only about 10 turns.
Real misstake was to kill Rome 1. as in Dom game u should allways go for farthest civ 1. but without knowing where it is its hard ...
Still I should have send 1. army somewhere else and killed Rome with after astro built stuff - pretty obvious in Retro.

What also d have helped d have been a less agressive Rome to be able to sign 1 more RA but well - cant have everything ...

Whoever beats this on 1. playthrough must be a real beast whom I d like to see play some mp league games

edit: nice vid - crazy what some people can/are willing to do

edit2: btw GL did go out in like turn 35 or so this game - was really disappointed there .... planed it for myself - wonder if thats same in all your games - getting it d have helped a lot
now I ll see if I can beat this 214 game from Neuro - he s been like 50 turns faster as all others - sounds like a challenge

 

[Tabarnak]

Really impressive tommynt. I have a few questions :

-At which turn you discovered Philo? And before or after iron working?
-At which turn you discovered Astro?
-Did you concentrate on Greece and Iroquois before other civs(read farthest civs first) and keep traders(France, Roman and Ghengis) for the end?

 

[tommynt]

Really impressive tommynt. I have a few questions :

-At which turn you discovered Philo? And before or after iron working?
-At which turn you discovered Astro?
-Did you concentrate on Greece and Iroquois before other civs(read farthest civs first) and keep traders(France, Roman and Ghengis) for the end?

1. like turn 45 I guess
2. its been either 81 or 91 lemme think ... musst have been 81
3. read my post - I went for 4 guys same time (1 Army did just swim into open as there had be the something anywhere ...)

 

[Airey]

wow....amazing.

 

[kcd_swede]

Only meritocracy is needed. The rest can come from anywhere and will not change anything if you plan to destroy everyone with Japan's UU. I went Honor for extra GG for my 3rd army but he didn't change anything. Selling luxuries, getting Steel and Astro are the 3 most important things to do.

Well... 2 out of three should be pretty good then, right? WRONG! Without selling stuff, its just too slow to get the forces needed before they are obsolete. That's my mistake, anyhow. I think that's where most of my games could be improved.

I was very quick to steel, and even so far as navigation. I wiped the 3 capitols on my continent, no big issue. But by the time I got to Iroqois... even though Alex had softened them up a bit, I just fall short (against strength 43 city!!!). I got to rifling a bit slower.

Did I mention I settled inland, so had no ships? Its murder trying to cross the oceans, though I only actually lost a couple units.

Did I mention that I did not sign any RA's? Always trouble trying to keep finances going.

Oh well... another retired game at 1645AD for me. The Iroqois went into industrial age and I knew it was now hopeless.

Seems that getting help from AI killing each other would make this game a lot easier. But if I buy enough units, I think I'd have had better results. May play it again just for the practise. Nah, I'll probably do TSG13 instead (late, I know).

 

[Muaziz]

Which turn did you discover Astro

2. its been either 81 or 91 lemme think ... must have been 81

How is this possible unless you RA-block Steel. And per your report, your RAed into Steel when Compass wasn't fully blocked.

Did you go for a very early Optics and that is how you got the extra RAs with the Iroquois and/or Greeks? Most folks seem to have gone AH -> Trapping either right before or after Philosophy. And after that, it made sense to go Masonry (clear Swamps) -> Calendar for the 2 Spices (and Bananas).

But with 3 RAs (Caesar, Khan, Napoleon) and 1 GS (Meritocracy), I don't see how you get to Astronomy on turn 81.

In my games, I got to Writing fast and then bought a Library as soon as I could (around turn 27) and then built the NC right away (completed by turn 44). While you might be able to do it a little faster, I don't see shaving that many turns on it, and besides, earlier on your city size will be smaller which will reduce the beakers. And if you go for Optics before Calendar, that further reduces city growth and gold.

So I'm looking at my turn 85 after bulbing my GS for CS and completing 2 RAs for MC and Steel (everything else was blocked). And in this game, I got Philosophy a little later, opting to get Calendar first. I only had 2 RAs whereas you probably had a 3rd (didn't sign one with Caesar since I was late to Phi). At this point, I still need to finish Theology and Compass (which were both blocked and together had 14 turns left), and get Education and Astronomy.

Neither of us built the Great Library so that's not it. In my most recent game I wanted to see how things played out without the GLib since I felt it took a really long time to build and that time could have been spent building a faster army.

So what exactly did you do to get Astro on turn 81 while I still needed 14 turns (18 actually since I was looking from my turn 85) and 2 more RAs to get there? What am I missing?

 

[tommynt]

So what exactly did you do to get Astro on turn 81 while I still needed 14 turns (18 actually since I was looking from my turn 85) and 2 more RAs to get there? What am I missing?

little stuff can matter ....

 

[Muaziz]

little stuff can matter ....

I know which is why I am wondering what all the little stuff was... And there must have been a whole lot of it given the difference. We're talking about 15+ turns out of 81 which is significant given that we all played with the same constraints.

 

[Airey]

It is possible, if you can ignore IW for a little bit, block would be set on MC instead of Steel.

Without ignoring Steel, on my 2nd replay, got Astro on t88.

Spoiler :

So definitely doable. Especially when he settle on hill for the early extra production.

Edit: maybe swordmen rush is enough. Waiting for Steel is the bottleneck.

 

[Tabarnak]

For myself i went Writting, then Iron working before Philo. Going 30 turns faster on another continent can let you bring 2 Samurais instead of 3.