Turn 200 diplomatic win possible?

[DrakenKin]

Have any of you been able to do it?

My current problem right now is the moment the world leader vote happens, it makes me waste too much time to wait for it. I don't get how it works so i can optimise it. In my current test game, i got into the information era on turn 240, but the vote is in 29 turns, putting at a 270 turns win. That's 29 turns of having nothing to do, is it possible to time it so it is shorter? Maybe by triggering atomic versus science at a specific moment or something?

Is the vote always 29 turns after you reach information era? Do you have any advice on that aspect?

 

[Resipsa]

There's a thread on here that explains the mechanics of the turns to diplo victory, i forgot the name of it though its an interesting read

 

[joncnunn]

That was much easier before the fall patch that increased number of votes needed for victory.

(Basically before then you could win on the very first vote [even without Globalism])

At the moment, you pretty much need Globalism, which changes the goal for a turn 200 victory from entering the Information Era C. turn 175 to completing Globalism C. turn 175

(Spies turned into Diplomats in time that they've finished "making introductions" before the first vote following globalism)

 

[klaskeren]

Sure, in the previous G-minor, Cromagnus posted a turn 175 vic, a few other sub 200 games were posted also. Go check it out.

 

[DrakenKin]

There's a thread on here that explains the mechanics of the turns to diplo victory, i forgot the name of it though its an interesting read

I can't find it. Could you post the link please?

 

[Cromagnus]

Sub-200 peaceful is difficult, but it can be done. You must have a high tech rate though. Something like t130 Printing Press w/ 350bpt, 700bpt by t170. Sub-t180 warlike victory is also achievable with the same metrics. The limit is somewhere around t165 warlike, t180 peaceful. It's highly dependent on difficulty level as well.

 

[DrakenKin]

Thanks,

Any thoughts on ways to optimise the timing on the vote?

Basicly how to get the vote to fall when you reach atomic with war or info as peaceful, when to trigger the first vote and so on.

Maybe on lower difficulties not discover PP until you are ready? Or discover it 20 turns before you think you'll hit information age?

The thing that throws me off is that i thought the vote maximum turns was 20 turns, but once i got it at 29 turns, which makes me think i am not undestanding the mechanics well.

Screenshots for the 29 turns game : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=261387625

 

[Acken]

Here is a post from Cromagnus in the last G-Minor that could help you.
Basically if I understand it right, the first vote for WL appears 10 turns after the last vote. If that last normal vote happens in the wrong era you'll have to go through another normal vote and then it's 10 turn after that I believe so like your screeshot around 30turns.

If you want to reach the fastest time you must reach atomic and kill everyone but 2, or reach information before the first or second normal vote. This must be done in the timing frame suggested below.

To be sure to get enough votes you will want all CS, the palace and vote for world religion in the first vote.

Source: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=525371&page=3
I personally was able to obtain a T188 victory following the method.

PP=Printing Press

Spoiler :

t125 isn't necessary. It depends on the era you're in when the vote occurs.

If you're in the industrial when the first vote occurs, it's like this:
t125: PP
+1 turn before vote
+ 30 turns until vote
+1 for civs entering industrial era (if you eliminate all but two civs during this time)
+1 for vote turn itself
t158: Next vote cycle
+ 25 turns until vote (because it's the industrial era)
+1 for civs entering modern era
+1 for civs entering atomic era
+1 for vote turn
t186: Next vote cycle begins
+10 turns (atomic era)
t196 win

BUT! If you're in the modern era when the first vote occurs it's like this:
t125: PP
+1 turn before vote
+ 30 turns until vote
+1 for civs entering industrial era
+1 for civs entering modern era
+1 for vote turn itself
t159: Next vote cycle
+ 20 turns until vote (because it's the modern era)
+1 for civs entering atomic era
+1 for vote turn
t180: Next vote cycle begins
+10 turns until vote (because it's the atomic era)
t190 win

So, you can actually get a t200 win with t135 PP, even if you miss a vote.

And, there's even an edge condition when it takes less time. If you miss the 2-turn limit at the end of the vote cycle, and enter the atomic right before the vote, there will be 10 turns, meaning t180 win, even though you missed a vote cycle.

But, it's just so much better to win in one cycle.

t140: PP
+1 turns before first vote
+30 turns for vote
+1 turns for world entering industrial
+1 turns for world entering modern
+1 turns for world entering atomic
+1 turns for vote
t175: vote
+10 turns until leader vote
t185 victory

 

[DrakenKin]

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks!

 

[Cromagnus]

I think my math was still wrong there. I believe it's 2 turns per era change. ("World has entered", not "You have entered")

If you tech Printing Press on t130, and don't mess up the timings, you win on t178. So, 48 turns total. 1 turn delay for founding the world congress, 30 turns for the first vote, 2 turns for world entering Industrial, 2 turns for entering the Modern, 2 turns for entering the Atomic, 1 turn for the world congress vote, 10 turns for the world leader vote = 48 turns. I think. I can never keep it straight.

And you must enter the atomic era 2 turns before the vote. In other words, if you tech PP on t130, you start off with a vote on t161. Upon entering the industrial, the vote shifts to 163. At Modern, it shifts to 165. Therefore, you MUST enter the Atomic Era tech no later than 163. This shifts the vote to t167. So, you basically have 33 turns to hit the Atomic from the moment you tech Printing Press. Hope that clears it up.

For your first attempt at these timings, I do recommend teching Printing Press as the last possible tech before Sci Theory. It's probably overkill but it makes it a lot easier. It is however, unnecessary to do so. If you can research PP on t120, you can win the game in 48 turns. The reason why is simple: The sooner you get PP, the better your tech rate *must be*. Better tech rate = easier to hit Atomic Era. I don't recommend bulbing a GS to get PP unless you're *extremely* confident about your beakers/turn. You'll need every one of those GS to hit the atomic in 33 turns.

On that t175 run I only delayed PP to t127. I could have teched it on t121. I didn't feel confident enough about my beakers/growth rate. For reference, I was at 300 beakers/turn on t120, but I only had like one Maritime CS ally and I got both Petra and Colossus late. (With 6 cities, each maritime CS equates to 8 food/turn, and 2 caravans = ~12 food/turn... a very significant amount in the grand scheme of things)

It can be very hard to judge whether you'll reach your tech goals in time, because growth rate and bpt are hard to predict. That's why I recommend starting by delaying PP as long as possible, and then work your way down as you get more practice.

 

[DrakenKin]

Alright thank you, I will try that on my next diplomatic map. In the meantime i'll work on my science. A few questions if you don't mind :

- To get those fast beaker per turn up to 120 do you have a minimum of cities to have?
- Do each city have to send food to focus on capitol or do you go for a more spread out population among your cities?
- Do you have a minimum number of food trade routes to capitol? (I guess hanging gardens count as a trade route if you can get it)
- Would you prefer to spend your gold buying science buildings as soon as available or spend it allying city states / maritimes?
- How important is luck with we love the king days?
- I always hesitate on running all specialists (prefering to put pop on food to grow faster). So I stick to running scientists, artists, and writers (not musiciens) and only use others 8 turns before I bulb the scientists. Am I doing it right?
- How many scientists do you typically settle, if at all?

But knowing the timing is about 33 turns after PP is a tremendous help, thank again. Can't wait to try this.

 

[Acken]

- To get those fast beaker per turn up to 120 do you have a minimum of cities to have?
More a factor of how many you can plant that will have an adequate amount of food, luxuries and a mountain. Aim for 4 to 6. I often do 5.
- Do each city have to send food to focus on capitol or do you go for a more spread out population among your cities ?
Capital is the priority, this the place with the most bonuses (especially with king day) and a high capital benefits a lot from Monarchy. But I sometimes use traderoute to help cities that are lagging behind.
- Do you have a minimum number of food trade routes to capitol? (I guess hanging gardens count as a trade route if you can get it)
I use 2 minimum
- Would you prefer to spend your gold buying science buildings as soon as available or spend it allying city states / maritimes?
Both, really depends on the situation.
- How important is luck with we love the king days?
One of the most important factor. Consider spending 28Gpt (hard in the beginning) for a ressource or 500G to a city states. Pro tip: You can get a ressource from an AI for 28gpt, pass a turn to activate King Day and then DoW to get back your gold. Warmongering penalty isn't huge when you don't take cities.
- I always hesitate on running all specialists (prefering to put pop on food to grow faster). So I stick to running scientists, artists, and writers (not musiciens) and only use others 8 turns before I bulb the scientists. Am I doing it right?
Yes but there is a breaking point where you're better to simply run all slots to benefit from secularism. It's a bit hard to really know when it is exactly but it is there
- How many scientists do you typically settle, if at all?
For this strategy only 1 (supposedly finishing tech at turn 170 so you won't really benefit from more).

 

[Memoryjar]

Some civ are better for fast diplo victory. Korea, Babylon and Maya for fast tech. Spain for fast start.
Also, good culture per turn is useful. If you see Civs pick for a sub T200 in the gauntlet, there are Aztecs and Poland. Aztecs UB give a nice boost for growth and on low level. Also, because you raze most of cities and have barbs camps, so UA helps. Poland UAmakes the job, it's pretty easy to have full tradition, patronage and secularism when you hit renaissance.

Alright thank you, I will try that on my next diplomatic map. In the meantime i'll work on my science. A few questions if you don't mind :

- To get those fast beaker per turn up to 120 do you have a minimum of cities to have?
- Do each city have to send food to focus on capitol or do you go for a more spread out population among your cities?
- Do you have a minimum number of food trade routes to capitol? (I guess hanging gardens count as a trade route if you can get it)
- Would you prefer to spend your gold buying science buildings as soon as available or spend it allying city states / maritimes?
- How important is luck with we love the king days?
- I always hesitate on running all specialists (prefering to put pop on food to grow faster). So I stick to running scientists, artists, and writers (not musiciens) and only use others 8 turns before I bulb the scientists. Am I doing it right?
- How many scientists do you typically settle, if at all?

But knowing the timing is about 33 turns after PP is a tremendous help, thank again. Can't wait to try this.

My opinion.
- 4 cities can make it if you have observatories in your cities, specially in two first in science. Without, 6 is a good balance. 5 you'll may be too short. After, you need a couple of gold to ensure a good growth for you cities. I didn't have a better result with 7 to 9 cities (note my level is under Cromagnus and Acken, so...). You'll have to manage unhappiness which is really a problem because it forbids you rationalism bonus.
- I use to feed for 30turns my satellites to ensure a good size, then I prioritize major cities.
- 2 at least. All trade routes are for cash when I'm near to atomic in war mode or information era in peaceful.
- Twice if you can. At the beginning, you'll have CSquests. There are mostly barbs camps quests.So easy allies. Cultural are also good early allies. On higher level, ally CSis a good choice if you can go to Scholasticism. I wonder what other players think, but Consulates nearly never helps me.So I tend to ignore it and choose Philantropy and Scholasticism.
- On peaceful mode, king's day is quite easy to have. I think it's really important in capital and major cities with a bunch of food. Otherwise, I don't waste 28 gpt for it (and don't use Acken tips).
- For fast diplo victory, I fill all specialist slots until PP, then I prioritize growth.
- None, I bulb first one for PP. After I stock them.

Don't underestimate faith per turn and creation of great persons other than GS. I failed all my attempts for sub T190 on last minor gauntlet for 1 GS.
Sometimes, because of a GW, sometimes because it miss me a few faith to buy one more GS.

 

[DrakenKin]

Thank you.

I did a couple of practice games on immortal following these tips. My biggest problem is reaching 300 beakers by turn 120, i am having a hard time.

But I know the reasons :
- I am too used to making 3 cities, sometimes 4 if i find an amazing spot.
- On top of that i prioritize GL and NC before expanding, so i stay on one city for too long.
- I am also too used to going GL everytime, i do get it but it's at the cost of fast, and more expansions.

This is my usual build order : Scout monument scout shrine GL NC FirstSettler Granary otherSettlers. Somewhere in there i buy a worker with gold and i build another. For this reason i don't expand before turn 70-80.

Lately I have been trying to slow down on early exploration and using scout and warrior to steal workers to try and get by without making any workers before my first settler. It works well when i can pull it off, now i need to figure out what to change to get settlers out faster. Maybe give up on shrine / religion and only make one scout. Possibly also not making a monument and stick to the free one from tradition, even if imo it slows down policies quite a bit, it has a big impact on getting aqueducts quick or not.

Do I have to forget about GL?

I need to figure out a way to get those 5-6 cities fast and efficiently to get 300 beakers in 120 turns or so. Any suggestions on a better build order than what i am currently using?

 

[Acken]

Hold on a minute.

300 beakers at T120 on immortal is hard to get. When Cromagnus claims he had 300 in his hall of fame game at that time, you have to remember it was a Chieftain level game.
That means policies cost less, technology cost less, more happiness and you have a free ride on every wonder of the game.

To get that kind of numbers you need a killer capital, good terrain (salt, rivers, mountain). You basically want to reach university before T100 and already have observatories + universities at turn 120. For policies you save oracle to get secularism as soon as you reach renaissance.

If you can get all 3, this will yield 300bpt:
-Secularism
-4+ cities with universities and running the slots
-observatories

But doing that by turn 120 on immortal is tough. In the babylon challenge in another thread on immortal I reach 300bpt at turn 125 but that is with luck where I'm able to delay Oracle at T110 for secularism, hard to do that consistently on immortal.

So if you want to try it, at least take an OP civ like babylon.

For your opener I prefer to skip the monument generally if going tradition, at least I go scout scout first and then for the 3rd sometimes I go monument if I have found no ruin. You may want to make the granary before GL NC so that you can grow the most during that time of wait. Try scout scout granary (shrine) GL NC. You can skip the shrine and gamble on finding a faith ruin but it's possible you don't have writing yet when skipping in which case do a shrine or a worker.

 

[DrakenKin]

Oh I see, thanks for the explanation about the 300 beakers.

But it is motivating to aim for that, knowing that's probably the cutting edge of what is possible "when opportunity meets preparation".

For my build order, I used to make a granary before GL on emperor, but on immortal I find that if i don't skip the granary I will lose GL to the AI. I have to get it before turn 45-50, so that limits what i can build before it. I have to get it started around turn 25, so that leaves 25 turns to make whatever i can early. monument scout scout shrine adds up nicely to 25 usually, and if i do granary instead of monument i might need to skip the second scout since granary is more hammer intensive than a monument. (biggest pain is that pottery is not available before 10 turns, meaning there's a hole between first scout and granary / shrine where you can't build them, which ultimately delays your GL by 5-7 turns and puts you at risk of not getting it.)

So ultimately if i want to walk away from this Build order I need to completely forget about GL, because this BO is designed around it for maximum synergy.

And actually, even the fast monument is there so I can get landed elite then aristocracy while making GL and NC (sometimes i even make monument first before scout), it does shave a at least 6-7 turns total from making these 2 wonders and let you move on sooner to making settlers. My current build is not optimal, but it has some nice affinities that are too tempting to walk away from.

I guess I'll leave GL for emperor and below and skip it on immortal and deity in favor of more expansion and better city positioning before the AI grabs all the good spots.

Thanks again.

 

[Cromagnus]

Oh I see, thanks for the explanation about the 300 beakers.

But it is motivating to aim for that, knowing that's probably the cutting edge of what is possible "when opportunity meets preparation".

For my build order, I used to make a granary before GL on emperor, but on immortal I find that if i don't skip the granary I will lose GL to the AI. I have to get it before turn 45-50, so that limits what i can build before it. I have to get it started around turn 25, so that leaves 25 turns to make whatever i can early. monument scout scout shrine adds up nicely to 25 usually, and if i do granary instead of monument i might need to skip the second scout since granary is more hammer intensive than a monument. (biggest pain is that pottery is not available before 10 turns, meaning there's a hole between first scout and granary / shrine where you can't build them, which ultimately delays your GL by 5-7 turns and puts you at risk of not getting it.)

So ultimately if i want to walk away from this Build order I need to completely forget about GL, because this BO is designed around it for maximum synergy.

And actually, even the fast monument is there so I can get landed elite then aristocracy while making GL and NC (sometimes i even make monument first before scout), it does shave a at least 6-7 turns total from making these 2 wonders and let you move on sooner to making settlers. My current build is not optimal, but it has some nice affinities that are too tempting to walk away from.

I guess I'll leave GL for emperor and below and skip it on immortal and deity in favor of more expansion and better city positioning before the AI grabs all the good spots.

Thanks again.

Yes, 300bpt on t120 is definitely the upper bound of what's possible. Very tricky to achieve on Immortal as mentioned. And agreed, you should definitely skip GL on Immortal too. However, if you're wanting a sub-t200 peaceful diplomatic victory on Immortal specifically, those numbers aren't accurate. There's more leeway on Immortal because you can steal techs, get trade route beakers and make research agreements. I think even 200bpt on t120 would suffice on Immortal or Deity. 200bpt by that turn is very reasonable for Immortal if, as you say, "opportunity meets preparation".

 

[Memoryjar]

Build a settler instead GL. Which civ do you play ?

 

[DrakenKin]

I don't have a civilization.

Or rather, I want to get the achievements for every civ eventually, so I only play each civ once. The only exception is when a civ shows on a TSG.

 

[Memoryjar]

Sub T-200 with minor civs is pretty hard. Tech civs, Aztecs, Poland, Spain have a real advantage. I wonder if someone can do a sub-T200 with Askia or Harald.