Unitstats

Ploeperpengel · Jun 19, 2006

Third post contains the new approach on unitstats.

Volunteers for calculating the Empire?

The current unitschema won't fit for all of the civs but I think we can still use it as base. Individual strengths of UUS we should discuss later or in the threads for the different civs.

We need to know what the strength values should be and what techs should be the prereqs(example vanilla Warrior)

Ancient

Worker
Ancient Warrior: Str 2, tech: none, modifiers: 25% city defense
Ancient Spearman
Ancient Archer
Ancient Axeman
Ancient Swordman
Shaman
Horse-Archer
Catapult
Chariot
Monster I
Scout
Galley

Age of Magic

Citizen
Militia Spearman
Militia Archer
Militia Swordsman
Light Knight
Hedge-Wizard
Bolt-Thrower
War Chariot
Monster II
Explorer
Caravel

Age of Discovery

Royal Guard: (should be strong, national unit restricted to 3 units in game)
Pikemen
Longbowmen
Crossbowmen
Heavy Knight
Wizard
Cannon
Galleon
Frigate

Mechanical Age

Cavalry
Musketman
Monster III: (national unit 1)
Ironclad
Special Unit: (national unit 3)

DutchJunkie · Jun 20, 2006

Ploeperpengel said:
Here I want to collect Unitstatideas. Feel free to post everything you can think of related to this just follow this rules:

1)
only one unit per post please!
2)
only posts which include a whole unitstatsheet not just some values and questiobnsmarks.

Sorry but i don't really understand the question. Would you like warhammer stats? I can provide many of them from my army books. Or do you want specific stats for the mod? If the latter, do you want to point out which stats you need? (as in strength, defense, withdrawel chance etcetera?)

Ploeperpengel · Jun 20, 2006

We agreed roughly about the following:

WS/BS(whichever is higher) should give firststrike chances
STR+Toughness+Attacks+Saving Rolls should be reflected in STR + Era-Mod
Ini should be reflected in firststrikes and or maybe withdrawal chances
Movement should be reflected in withdrawal chances and of course movement

Extraordinary powerful units could be firststrikeimmune in this system

Weapons we can reflect via promotionsettings later:

i.e Lances +20% strength attacking etc.
and of course also reflectng the paper-stone scissor system

Detail:

If we want to convert WH-Rules to civ we should be careful to not overexceed effects of WH-stats.

What's the effect of WS and STR/T in WH exactly?

A human attacking a Human has (WS 3 against WS 3) means he has a 50% chance to hit. If he hits he gets another 50% Chance to wound (Str 3 against Toughness 3). So what we have is a chance of 25% to kill his opponent(since he only has 1 wound). For the defender this means a 75% chance to survive the first blow and strike back. That means his chance to kill the attacker is about 19%.

The gladeguard has a chance of 66% to hit and the same chance to wound(fighting a human). Chance to killl is therefore 33%. The Empire Soldiers chance to survive the attack and kill the elf instead would be round about 16,5%.

The chances would stay the same if the elf had a WS of 4,5,6 - no matter!

here the tab for dice rolls to hit:

Spoiler:
Def WS

AT 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
2 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5
3 3 3 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 5
4 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 5
5 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4
6 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4
7 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4
8 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4
9 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4
10 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4

Sorry for the chaos: vertical line is Attackers value horizontal line defenders WS.
See what I mean? Weaponskill 10 sounds impressive but it doesn't matter much regarding hit chances if the attacker has WS 10 or just 4 against a def with WS 3. I counts just a little more if the defender got a WS value more than two times higher than the attacker, that's all.
So if we use WS I recommend small steps:

WS 1-3: no FS chance
WS 4-6: 1 FS chance
WS 7-9: 2 FS Chances
WS 10: 3 FS chances

In the example above (human against human) a higher ini would decide who gets the 25% and who the 19 %. The difference is just 6%. Of course striking first gets more powerful if also str and ws are higher.

I recommend something similar as above:
Ini:0-2: nada
Ini:3-5: 1 FS
Ini:6-8: 2 FS
Ini: 9-10: 3 FS

So in my version the gladeguard still would get 1 FS + 1 chance(since th Empire soldier got a FS too, he disables 1 firststrike of the gladeguard) and normaly win-so I guess he should be more expensive. In WH he costs roughly about 50% more than the Empire Soldier and since the Elf will likely get some boni in woodterrain too and maybe even move faster he should indeed cost at least 1,5 times the shields of the Empire Soldier. I think somewhere in this direction we can balance this.
Note: Ini of less than 3 normally are really slow units like undead and Dwarfs. Elves have normally Ini 6. Humans 3. Values in between or above apply mostly to monsters and heros(powerful individuals)

Weapons and Armor not yet taken to account(I recommend we put this after we decided about the basic stats-small steps!)

Basic Str: WH Str+Toughness

Attacks(A) will modify this:

A of 1 +0%
A of 2 +20%
A of 3 +30%
A of 4 +40%
A of 5 + 50%
A more than 5 get immunity to firststrikes

Wounds (W):

I suggest
wound 1 is +0%STR
wound 2 is +20% STR
above 2 every wound adds 10% to a total of 100% with ten wounds

Movement:
M = 1-4 --- 1 movement
M = 5-8 --- 2 movement
M = 9 or more --- 3 movement

Ploeperpengel · Jun 27, 2006

Since we will have to decide soon what strengths and weaknesses the units should have I suggest we think about the unitstats for the general schema above in the first post. This would really help since I'm currently working on the unitinfo.
Forget about what I wrote earlier here about a complete design every single value counts and helps now.

Ploeperpengel · Jul 2, 2006

Suggestions so far:

PL:
Ok, first of all we need a method for deciding what strength a unit will be.

I think it would be good if there was a base strength for all units in one tier. ie ancient units have a bae strength of 2, the next tier has base strength 5, next tier hasbase strength 10, next tier has base strength 15 (or something) and then each indevidual unit gets some extar strength added on or subtracted from that depending on thier abilities.
eg spell casters should get strength subtracted, because they are not strong but can cast spells.
movement should be easy: foot units have 1 move, skermish and horsy units have 2 move, flying and winged mosters have 3 and dragons and other uber things have 4.

Olleus:
Don't have any unit with movement greater than 3. It is simply to easy to blitz with those units and the AI will get very confused (just look at naval units).

I like your idea of base strength, maybe it should go something like this:
2, 5, 10, 18, 30, 50
So that you have an incentive for researching new techs. If you are afraid that this will cause big 'jump points' I have made a python mod where certain techs can make certain units a little stronger, making the rise in unit strengh progressive.

To make units stronger/weaker you could do:WS + S + T + 2A + 2W and compare that to a benchmark (about 13?). For every point above/below this the unit gets it strength changed by 10% (rounding up/down).

Also:
(I + BW) 5 = 0 - 1 first strike
(I + BW) 6 = 1 first strike
(I + BW) 7 = 1 - 2 first strikes
(I + BW) 8 = 2 first strikes
ect...

And for retreat chance:
(I + M) 9 = 10% chance
(I + M) 10 = 20% chance
(I + M) 11 = 30% chance
(I + M) 12 = 40% chance
ect...

That should be a good starting point.

Ploep:
I think this is to large steps. I don't think the normal tier concept really fits to Warhammer. I know you invented that for your mod to have tanks not beaten up by spearman i.e. but why shouldn't a crowd (a lreally arge one) of goblinspearmen beat up the phoenix guard?

Olleus · Jul 2, 2006

If the steps are too small, then why bother researching techs? You might be better off turning science off and gold rushing every unit you can.

Ploeperpengel · Jul 2, 2006

Well we can have some powerful units like Dragons, Bloodthirsters etc. which will be at the end of the tech tree. But I really prefer having smaller steps and working more with promotions and special abilities to have more tactical options instead of just brute force. The goal shouldn't be just conquering the world but doing this in as interesting way. The player should be forced to use the most effective unit against the enemy. Wich just overpowered units which are effective against anything there wouldn't be much fun in that, at least not for me.

Olleus · Jul 2, 2006

fair enough.
How about reducing the basic age strength to:
5, 8, 12, 18, 27, 40

That way, every age provides a +50% bonus compared to the previous age. Thats a very large bonus, but one which is easily countered by city defences, clever uses of promotions and unit bonuses.

Ploeperpengel · Jul 2, 2006

What about lessining that to 20% and reducing the production costs of higher tier units?

Edit: see below, just three steps I think 50% is okay. I was just trembling about the 40.

Ploeperpengel · Jul 2, 2006

Btw we have only four eras and the last tier is really limited to just a couple of special units which makes it just three real steps after all.

Olleus · Jul 2, 2006

Then it is not worth researching stuff. I hardly think that an orc armed with an iron sword is only slightly better than an orc armed with a stone club. The iron age orc would slaughter its ancient cousin every time.

Ploeperpengel · Jul 2, 2006

Lord Olleus said:
Then it is not worth researching stuff. I hardly think that an orc armed with an iron sword is only slightly better than an orc armed with a stone club. The iron age orc would slaughter its ancient cousin every time.

I edited the post above. Yes you're right 50% is okay. That makes round about steps:
5, 8, 12
18-20 for specials like the Steamtank, Dragons etc.

Fine that way?

Olleus · Jul 2, 2006

I'm fine with that. If I have time I might apply the system above to get Civ stats for different units to see if it looks OK.

Ploeperpengel · Jul 2, 2006

That would be good. I could need this as soon as possible. Could you make this your toppriority right now? I think the unitschema and the techtree just have to be the base for the rest. We need to set up the generic unitschema and militaristic techs before we can really fit in the rest.

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 3, 2006

Ploeperpengel said:
I edited the post above. Yes you're right 50% is okay. That makes round about steps:
5, 8, 12
18-20 for specials like the Steamtank, Dragons etc.

Fine that way?

Good ideas. those base powers would end up as the average powers for that age if i am correct.

woodelf unit example (not refined, just guessed)
(the first number is strength, second is movement.)

Spoiler :

DutchJunkie · Jul 3, 2006

What about armour save and wounds .. can wounds be put in just like in the civ3 mod (the green bar)? .. and armour save is rather important ..

Is it also possible to give units defensive en offensive bonusses in basic stats?

Are strength and movement the only variables we can use? Or is there a offensive and defensive strength. Strength against certain units etcetera?

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 3, 2006

we can make promotions that make units better against other types of units, ie elf slaying, orc slaying from FfH

DutchJunkie · Jul 3, 2006

Psychic_Llamas said:
we can make promotions that make units better against other types of units, ie elf slaying, orc slaying from FfH

Spearmen are a good example. They are defensive units that should be better against horse riders for example. We should give them lower strength, but a bonus (experience?) against horse riders. Swordsmen would be standard attacking units. Halberdiers are even better in defending than Spearmen, but also worse in offensive battles. Can we gives them a bonus if attacked? and let them use normal strength if attacking? Maybe it's a good idea to describe every possible weapon in Civ terms ..

I'm also afraid that every Empire city will be guarded by some Griffonriders for exaple. This is not the correct thread to start about this i think, but isn't it a good idea to give überunits a maximum? That you can build one per city for example? I don't know if this is possible?

Olleus · Jul 3, 2006

well maybe we could give bonuses depending on what armement the unit has.

great weapon = 100% versus monsters

2 hand weapons = 50% versus melee

hand weapon + shield = +50% against characters (good in duel)

spear = +100% versus cavalry

lance = +50% when attacking

mounted sword = +50% against cavalry

bow/longbow = +25%/+50% defending cities, +25% defending hills

handgun= +1 strength

btw, are we keeping the same unit combats as in vanilla or are we changing them? I would be all in favour of having heavy_cavalry and light_cavalry as two different groups.

edit: Made a few changes.

Ploeperpengel · Jul 3, 2006

I suggest handguns being effective against melee(especially against slow units) well in history they were the main reason for knights dissappering so also good against heavyknights I suggest. Or lets just say strong and effective against anything but cavalry, warmachines and large monsters(so to say everything of their own era) but limited to 10 units or less per civ to ensure diversity and the AI not only building musketmen anymore.

Shouldn't lances not being effective against infantry mainly? since most Knights will have lances in game this value would go to nothing. on the other hand I count heavy knights to the strongest of their era anyway so maybe they just would go well with withdrawal in addition to their str value.

I especially like the Greatweapon idea being effective against monsters.

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