Unitstats

[seZereth]

So we should add some sort of rank bonus? well it certainly is realistic. then we should put the formations in groups something like this:

- loners, small groups, skirmishers
- 'normal' unit
- large unit

then give them negative bonusses.

well no... i actually would say, give a unit 10 or archer 9 (cause of formations.xml) units, and a strength and then look that a single unit is not stronger than a whole regiment. if you want to field large groups, than simple build 2 cheaper regiments of 10 goblins and field em against one regiment of a more expansive unit...

I do talk of Heros and Monsters, and by the way Cavalry, which has 5 units in his regiment. But unit size simply should not be too detailed!

 

[seZereth]

OK i downloaded the warmaster rulebook and will have a look at it, perhaps this will help us with stats and stuff... for everyone who wants to have a look too, go to this side and download some rulebooks in pdf files.. . . .

After that we can have a better decision about strength and stuff....
And hell guys, the gfx rocks ass, so lets get a gamemechanic which at least doubles this fun!!!!!

 

[Duke van Frost]

We could go this way:

Stats for Coreunits(Infantry)
Human:
Str 6, 1FS, M1
Elf:
Str.6, 1FSC, 1FS, M2
Orc:
Str.7,M1(Animosity)
Dwarf:
Str.7,1FSC,M1
Goblin:
Str.5,M1(Animosity)
Beastman:
Str7,1FSC, 1FS,M1
Skeleton:
Str.5,M1(+Fear)

For every WS below 3 unit gets an additional -1 Str
WS 5 additional +1 Str
Only working for Coreunits. But maybe it is still better to make them up. I'm really not sure about.

Are those suggestions meant to be for the Ancient Age? Just want to be sure.

And If I understand you right - do you want the units from the Age of Magic to replace the Units from the Ancient Era (except the Monster maybe)? And the Units from the Discovery and Mechanical Age are meant to be used alongside the Units from the Age of Magic?

So the Units from the Age of Magic make up the core army for most part of the game and the ones from the Age of Discovery and Mechanical are meant to be "special units"?

 

[Ploeperpengel]

That values would be basics for age of magic but I think it 'll really be better to check out this Warmaster rules. I'm not happy with our value conversion. I'm trying to dl Warmaster now!

And yes Age of magic units should be the core imo.

 

[Duke van Frost]

I would take a step away from conversions!

Just take those basic values and then create stats around those for the other units.

I will give this approach a try for the Empire today.

Will try to adjust the Strength for the other ages by ca. -2 for Ancient, or +2 for Discovery - Mechanical: I just don´t know right now.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Had a look at Warmaster yet? I really think this should be convertable since the game has a scale of battles quite fitting civ!
The best thing is all rules and armylists are for free dl!!!:
http://www.specialist-games.com/warmaster/default.asp

 

[Duke van Frost]

I know, already dled that, will have a look at it while doing the stats for the empire.

It has less stats then Fantasy Battle and that may help, because FB stats were already converted for this game.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Yes we won't come around making up some values to make use of the rock, paper, scissor but we can get a good orientating about basic str. with that.
However I won't have much time this weekend. But try took look into it too.
till later

 

[DutchJunkie]

Had a look at Warmaster yet? I really think this should be convertable since the game has a scale of battles quite fitting civ!
The best thing is all rules and armylists are for free dl!!!:
http://www.specialist-games.com/warmaster/default.asp

Is it still necessary for me to type all the unitstats? i have to do that manually and that's a lot of work .. i don't mind that if we use it .. but ..

If we are gonna use warmaster the regular stats become useless ..

 

[Duke van Frost]

The regular stats can all be found on the official GW site, so I think you don´t need to post them here.

 

[Duke van Frost]

We could go this way:

Stats for Coreunits(Infantry)
Human:
Str 6, 1FS, M1
Elf:
Str.6, 1FSC, 1FS, M2
Orc:
Str.7,M1(Animosity)
Dwarf:
Str.7,1FSC,M1
Goblin:
Str.5,M1(Animosity)
Beastman:
Str7,1FSC, 1FS,M1
Skeleton:
Str.5,M1(+Fear)

To get back to these "Standard Stats" for the civs - If we give Elves a movement of 2 maybe Cavalry Units need to get a Movement of 3, because Horses and the like are still somewhat faster than an Elf. but maybe this way Cavalry gets too fast and the elven units have to be too expensive (because double Movement Rate sounds really strong IMO).

Maybe we should change the Movement rate of all Units and give the Terrain differnt Movement points - but then again this may be too much, I heven´t made up my own mind for now.

So I would go like this for the next release: Elves M 2, Cavalry M 3 - and then Playtesting and public Feedback will give us a hint in which direction we should go!

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Heavy Knights could keep their Movement 2 if not elvish but else I agree. Winged Lancers i.e. allways had three moves anyway already. The movement 2 for elves I think will be ok. It doesn't outbalance FFH too much either and is very much like the gaelic swordsman civ3 had which also didn't make the celts allways win. It also works fine in civ3 WH. So I think we have pretty much examples where it's ok.
But to further balance this. Elves could get defense mali outside their territory(as soon the homeland promotion works). I think Homeland would indeed work for all elvish civs since all of them are very specialized to live in elvish environment.(And it explains why neither High nor Dark nor Woodelves ever succeeded to gain territory for long in kinstrifes )

 

[Duke van Frost]

Heavy Knights could keep their Movement 2 if not elvish but else I agree. Winged Lancers i.e. allways had three moves anyway already. The movement 2 for elves I think will be ok. It doesn't outbalance FFH too much either and is very much like the gaelic swordsman civ3 had which also didn't make the celts allways win. It also works fine in civ3 WH. So I think we have pretty much examples where it's ok.
But to further balance this. Elves could get defense mali outside their territory(as soon the homeland promotion works). I think Homeland would indeed work for all elvish civs since all of them are very specialized to live in elvish environment.(And it explains why neither High nor Dark nor Woodelves ever succeeded to gain territory for long in kinstrifes )

I agree with the point about the defense mali, but only as far as High- and Woodelves are concerned! I´d like to have the Darkelves being a "conquering civ" in WH History they attacked at least the Highelves and the Lizardmen from time to time (even if they didn´t succeed to gain much land). But I see the Darkelves as an offensive race, not a defensive one.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Yes they are but remember they suffer due to some disadvantages too if they aren't within their icy north. But maybe we can just give them a more diverse disadvantage based on terraintiles(i.e. desert) or features(forest) and boni in tundra and ice(which are more rare than forest at least and also can balance the mali in northern forests) But maybe we could switch that to future since it seems we won't get any python done in the next couple of weeks and Darkelves aren't my focus right now since we lack many units for thm still.

 

[Duke van Frost]

Yes they are but remember they suffer due to some disadvantages too if they aren't within their icy north. But maybe we can just give them a more diverse disadvantage based on terraintiles(i.e. desert) or features(forest) and boni in tundra and ice(which are more rare than forest at least and also can balance the mali in northern forests) But maybe we could switch that to future since it seems we won't get any python done in the next couple of weeks and Darkelves aren't my focus right now since we lack many units for thm still.

You must remember one thing: We don´t have a premade map, so the Darkelves can have their "homeland" in the Desert, Forests, or Plains, Depending on their starting position, which differs from game to game.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

What I mentioned last would of course NOT work with homeland. On a premade map that would mean doublebonus. On the other hand it will unbalance the civ for mapscripts. They could spawn in desert I forgot about that Ok forget about. Lets think about them later after release I'd say or in another thread.

 

[Duke van Frost]

I quickly made up some Unitstats for the Empire, these would be my suggestions so far:


Ancient

Worker: S0, 0FS, M2, can improve tiles
Unberogen Warrior: S2, 1FS, M1
Unberogen Spearman: S4, 1FS, M1, +25% vs Cavalry
Unberogen Archer: S3, 1FS, 1FSC, +50% City-Defense, +25% Hills-Defense
Unberogen Axeman: S4, 0FS, M1, +25% vs Melee
Unberogen Swordsman: S4, 1FS, M1, +20& City-Attack
Unberogen Shaman: S3, 0FS, M1, can cast spells
Ungol Horse-Archer: S4, 2FS, 1FSC, +50% vs Artilery, no Defense Bonus, Withdraw 25%
Catapult: S4, 1FS, M1, no Defense Bonus, Withdraw 25%, collateral 3 units 10%, City-Bombard 15%
Chariot: NONE
Pegasus: ???
Halfling Scout: S1, 1FS, M2, +100% vs Animals, only Defense, better results from Villages
Galley: NONE (there wasn´t one in the list in the first post)


Age of Magic

Citizen: ??? (what´s this supposed to be? a better Worker?)
Imperial Spearmen: S6, 1FS, M1, +25% vs Cavalry
Imperial Bowmen: S5, 2FS, 1FSC, M1, +50% City-Defense, +25% Hills-Defense
Imperial Swordsmen: S6, 1FS, M1, +20% City-Attack
Kislev Winged Lancer: S7, 1FS, M3, no Defense-Bonus, +50% vs Artillery, Withdraw 25%
Hedge-Wizard: S5, 0FS, M1, can cast Spells
Bolt-Thrower: NONE, get Mortar in Age of Discovery Instead
War Chariot: NONE
Griffon: ???
Halfling Explorer: S3, 1FS, M2, better Results from Villages
Empire War Galley: ???


Age of Discovery

Greatswords: S8, 1FS, M1, +20% City-Attack, +25% vs Monsters
Halberdiers: S8, 1FS, M1, +25% vs Cavalry
Imperial Hunters: S6, 3FS, 1FSC, M1 +50% City-Defense, +25% Hills-Defense
Imperial Marksmen: S7, 2FS, M1, +50% City-Defense, +25% Hills Defense
Reiksguard Knights: S9, 1FS, M3, no Defense-Bonus, +50% vs Artillery, Withdraw 25%
Wizard: S6, 0FS, M1, can cast spells
Great Cannon S7, 1FS, 1FSC, M1, collateral 4 Units 15%, City Bombard 20%, Withdraw 25%
Imperial Greatship:???
Imperial Wolfship: ???


Mechanical Age:

Pistolier: S8, 2FS, 1FSC, no Defense-Bonus, +50% vs Artillery, Withdraw 25%
Hand-Gunner: S8, 2FS, M1, +50% City-Defense, +25% Hills-Defense, +20% City-Attack
Monster III: NONE, Get Hellblaster Volley Gun Instead: S7, 2FS, 2FSC, collateral 5 Units 20%, Withdraw 25%
Ironfist, Hell-Hammer: ???
Steam Tank: ???


Plz, see this as a base for discussions, comments very welcome.

This also is much like the Vanilla cIV system and I didn´t come up with any Unitcosts.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

I think Knights and Winged lancers should receive a bonus against melee (something like 25%). Reiksguardknights should have a Movement of 2 only.
Imperial Spearmen and halberdiers should get 50% versus Kinghts to compensate their meleebonus. Greatswords should be as well provided with bonus against melee(Royal Guard should be powerful).
Pistolier shouldn't count as cavalry against spearmen neither should horsearchers! Lets have another unittype for ranged cavalry.
More ideas I spare for later. Now gotta play

 

[seZereth]

well it is a start, later we should implement the promotions /bonus vs something by armor and weapons... in my eyes MilitiaSwordsman should be the core, so not specialists against citys... but thats a point for later i think... so now we should keep it almost like that, and should diverse it through the weapons system. but give it a go like it is now, just to have a base to start...

 

[Duke van Frost]

Maybe we can just rename the Armored Unit-Type from Vanilla cIV to "Ranged Cavalry", because we have no need for the "Armored" type.

that way we have "Cavalry" and "Ranged Cavalry" and apply the Bonuses of Spearmen etc. only for "Cavalry" units.

I see the Militia Spearman as the core-unit, not the swordman. I think its the standard unit of WH, but may be wrong.

I´ll update the list with the suggestions, maybe do some stats for the units I left out, and come up with some cost for them. I think it will take about 1/2 to 1 hour, then I´ll post again.