Uses for old units

[Ghpstage]

Without a doubt, the most entertaining use for ridiculously outdated units is to raze cities in the modern era. Once the military forces have been cleansede via nuking your loin cloth clad, 4000 year old, 50 foot warriors can go in and burn it to the ground!

 

[A_Hamster]

My out-dated units wear funny uniforms and parade up and down outside my palace, providing photo-ops for tourists and encouraging foreign exchange from the same tourists.

They have funny titles like Beefeaters, and Royal Mouse Guards (even in a democracy), and they have funny rituals. My current Guard unit must turn three times anti-clockwise before sitting down to dinner in the Officers' Mess, and parade every Saturday around the 30 metre diamond encrusted statue I've built to myself in the main square of my capital. Which I've re-named after... myself.

I also have an old Trireme that acts as my Royal Barge.

*LOL!*

And have you named a penguin as Colonel-in-Chief of your Bodyguard regiment yet?
That's Colonel Penguin to you, mister!

BTW, if anyone would like to experiment with the EXP cap for upgrading, the XML file is globaldefines.XML, which is in the Assets/XML folder of BtS. Search for MAX_EXPERIENCE_AFTER_UPGRADE. The current value is 10. Remember, do not alter your original game files, or if you choose to do so, back up the entire Assets folder to another location on your hard drive.

Spoiler :

<DefineName>MAX_EXPERIENCE_AFTER_UPGRADE</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>

Edit: I've been trying to track down that thread I mentioned earlier with no success. The closest I've come is an earlier post of mine in which I refer to that experience of that other forum member, but there is no link. Having gone through my subscription folder, I can only conclude that while I read that post, I did not subscribe to the thread. The read would be older than 5 March 2008, which is when I made my previous post. Custom Game or Play Now?

 

[oldskald]

Sir Nils is most definitely a favourite. I think the Norwegians have got this one right. I've seen some fantastic pics of him "reviewing" his troops.

However, my Guards have a bad-tempered goat as their commander; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Windsor_(goat)

 

[huh?]

• Cannon fodder/can openers: Throw older units into the fray to preserve more of your siege weapons. Instead of attacking a strong defender with a catapult, trebuchet, or cannon, attack with a few older units instead to weaken that defender first. The downside here, however, is that each old unit lost in this manner will contribute to your overall war weariness.

Any other ideas?

I have seen too many times that the primary defender just chew through the obsolete units without that defender ever getting damaged. Using them for this is a calculated move, but I wouldn't trust enough to be a strategy.

 

[Hortulanus]

Another point is that this will also feed your opponent xp and GG points.

A third drawback to using obsolete units as can openers is that the AI uses the units lost:units killed ratio as part of its algorithm for deciding when to capitulate. If you suicide four warriors and a catapult to soften up a rifleman, then kill it with a maceman, the AI thinks it has won a great victory.

I don't think this is enough of a drawback to negate the usefulness of can openers, but it's one more thing to consider.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Any other ideas?

Scouting
Spies and old units are great for this.

Scouting has 2 parts :
- Exploring the map ;
- Seeing what's under the fog of war.

Spies can get caught ; old units can get destroyed. If one is > to the other depends upon the circumstances.

When at war spies are safer but, if I have to, I'll happily sacrifice a chariot to have hill vision in ennemy territory. It can help tremendously deciding how to move one's stack.
Thing to watch : not giving too much war success to the AI.
Peacetime : old units are better because they don't run the risk to get destroyed.

 

[Ataxerxes]

It was from another member of the forum, although I cannot cite the thread. The gist was that he used to play with Raging Barbs on until a game where he landed on another where there was only one AI, and he was faced with many Lvl 6 units. Since I don't know in what thread I read that, I can't cite it or double-check his story.

However, now that you have expressed doubts, something has occurred to me: his conclusion was based on the assumption that there was always only one AI on that continent and so the only experience source would be the various barb cities the AI was slowly conquering. What if the AI civ was the only surviving AI civ on that continent, and it had destroyed at least one other AI before the Human discovered that continent? Then the Lvl 6 units would have been veterans from AI vs AI and not AI vs barbs.

It might have also been confusion from RFC. I remember in RFC going over 10 XP's fighting only barbs in North America and Africa.

 

[Steve the Noble]

Sometimes I'll fortify an old unit on a hill to act as a lookout into AI territory.

I'll garrison inner cities with old units. It's amusing to build a spaceship in a city gaurded by a War Elephant.

 

[Vaidd]

I'll garrison inner cities with old units. It's amusing to build a spaceship in a city gaurded by a War Elephant.

Well, that's a fancy garrison you've got there. I routinely build tanks, jet fighters, and spaceship parts in cities guarded by guys wearing loincloths. I prefer to think of it as their "ceremonial uniform."

 

[huh?]

Well, that's a fancy garrison you've got there. I routinely build tanks, jet fighters, and spaceship parts in cities guarded by guys wearing loincloths. I prefer to think of it as their "ceremonial uniform."

That is the designation for my starting warrior if it lives that long. Once I get to the point that my empire is established, I'll rename that unit. He typically travels with the army in later wars to pacify newly captured capitals.

 

[Clam Spammer]

The AI is capped at 10XP vs barbs. Try a Huge/Marathon/Raging Barbs game, and you can see this for yourself by looking at the AI's units in the WorldBuilder. (Unless you really know what you're doing, you might wish to WB in the Great Wall and just watch the action )

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Edit: I've been trying to track down that thread I mentioned earlier with no success. The closest I've come is an earlier post of mine in which I refer to that experience of that other forum member, but there is no link. Having gone through my subscription folder, I can only conclude that while I read that post, I did not subscribe to the thread. The read would be older than 5 March 2008, which is when I made my previous post. Custom Game or Play Now?

Why bother tracking down the thread?

Set up your own test in World Builder. Put a bunch of Barb Warriors on a tiny island with an AI Rifleman or a similar such highly-in-favour-of-the-AI-winning scenario. Don't forget that the AIs already get a bonus against Barb units.

Every few turns, add more Barb Warriors to the island. Heck, even pair up the Rifleman with an AI Scout that has Combat I + Medic I.

You're just waiting to see if the Rifleman will get sufficient Promotions to ensure that it must have achieved 17 Experience Points.


You could even ridiculously shorten the testing time by editing the Rifleman's unit properties in the World Builder and initially giving the Rifleman 10 Experience Points, letting it win one fight, then opening the World Builder and checking that it has 11 or more Experience Points. To ensure that your testing methodology is sound, you'd actually start the AI Rifleman off with 9 Experience Points, to ensure that it could indeed gain Experience Points up to 10, and then would watch to see if further wins would push it above 10.

It took me longer to type this message than it will take for you to test the idea. If I didn't have a current game open, I'd try it myself since it's so quick to check.

 

[A_Hamster]

@Dhoomstriker: Ah, that would be simpler. Thank you. I'll do that later (I'm trying to finish a Noble's Club game right now). Clam Spammer may be right though.

 

[Clam Spammer]

Why bother tracking down the thread?

Set up your own test in World Builder.

Ah, yes, that would be the better way to test it. But my way's more fun

 

[Iranon]

At 3(hammer difference)+20, upgrading isn't that inefficient.
You pay an additional 20 gold over sinking gold into (non-Kremlin non-penalised) rushbuy without needing the Universal Suffrage civic, and the deal is considerably better if the old units would have gone to waste or you can get more/more useful promotions via upgrading.
Not a bad deal when gold multipliers are far higher than production multipliers or we're operating under circumstances where 'cottage growth' is a useful resource in its own right.

Even if it's still inefficient, there are practical benefits in the ability to upgrade your 'reserve units' whenever you want whereever you want, and to do so at the expense of research rather than other production projects. After reaching a key military tech, I may care less about efficiency and more about channeling my whole output into unit production before the window of opportunity for painless war closes.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Maybe I'm weird but I usually just upgrade them all over time.

 

[kochman]

Maybe I'm weird but I usually just upgrade them all over time.

I try to do that myself.
Do you pay more maintenance for more advanced units? I don't think you do, at least, I have been playing as though you didn't... If I am wrong, someone please correct me.
Therefore, you may as well get them modernized if you need/can afford to...

 

[Ataxerxes]

I try to do that myself.
Do you pay more maintenance for more advanced units? I don't think you do, at least, I have been playing as though you didn't... If I am wrong, someone please correct me.
Therefore, you may as well get them modernized if you need/can afford to...

Maintenance are based on # of units, so a Warrior costs as much maintenance as a Modern Armor.

If I can, I put off upgrading until I get a key military tech and then upgrade what I can to cutting-edge units if they have promos. I don't like gimping research for inexperienced units. As Iranon said, I like painless war. One thing I often do is build Trebs and then go for Steel - that upgrade doesn't cost that much for what you get. Something like Oromos are also very good for upgrades - free promos are often better than earned promos.

The problem with modernizing as soon as you can is it slows down research, often at a time you might be going for a key tech, such as Rifling, Steel, Lib, etc. Also, some units are good for garrison in the middle of your empire where they won't see combat - no need to upgrade those. I probably upgrade more than I should, but I like getting a powerful army fast.

 

[kochman]

Something like Oromos are also very good for upgrades - free promos are often better than earned promos.

Definitely better, because they don't count as a level! So you can still get more promos very rapidly with fresh Oromos, for example... Drill 4 after 2 promos, not a bad way to run an army!

 

[yturk39]

My out-dated units wear funny uniforms and parade up and down outside my palace, providing photo-ops for tourists and encouraging foreign exchange from the same tourists.

They have funny titles like Beefeaters, and Royal Mouse Guards (even in a democracy), and they have funny rituals. My current Guard unit must turn three times anti-clockwise before sitting down to dinner in the Officers' Mess, and parade every Saturday around the 30 metre diamond encrusted statue I've built to myself in the main square of my capital. Which I've re-named after... myself.

I also have an old Trireme that acts as my Royal Barge.

Awesome post!

Some ideas for out-dated units:

1) Scouting enemy territory. One plus of doing this is that you could tell as you move the unit whether or not the civ is interested in taking it as a gift. If the gift box isn't highlighted, ask yourself why. If it IS highlighted, again, ask yourself why.

2) Taking out barb settlements. These tend to be occupied by outdated units themselves, so your units can still be useful against them. Try attacking with least experienced units first, to soften the defenders, and finishing up with your most experienced (or fighting at whatever odds you're comfortable with). This way you might have a couple of the "obsoletes" that are experienced enough to merit the cost of upgrading them.

3) Swarm of Doom. I've never tried this, but I imagine it could be an interesting tactic. Have these guys move out dispersed, each on its own tile, behind your main stack. Occupy tiles surrounding the city that is your target and force the defenders to either A) kill them off and leave themselves exposed outside the city, or B) have city food, commerce, and hammer production come to a complete halt.