Venice discussion

[Eagle Pursuit]

I hope when you declare war on Venice that Enrico Dandolo says: "Your intentions were so blatant, that even I saw what you were doing there."

 

[Konsti]

I like the look of that

 

[cybrxkhan]

I hope when you declare war on Venice that Enrico Dandolo says: "Your intentions were so blatant, that even I saw what you were doing there."

I can definitely see some diplomacy message like that.

In fact, I'd like to see more diplomacy messages like that.

In fact, I think Enrico Dandolo's leader screen will be a feast for the eyes!

 

[Konsti]

Yeah, I just realized that Venice might have a hard time using their extra trade routes if everyone is angry with them for "killing city states under our protection!". Mass denouncements don't generally lead to lucrative trade deals. On the other hand, nobody seems to mass-denounce Austria for effectively destroying city states, so Venice is probably another exception.

You aren't "destroying them" you're just taking them under your control, and you dont get denounced if you become allies with a city state that someone else had. Except if you do it like 10 times. And I guess that replaces the "you are building cities too quickly and too close to my borders"

 

[Ulthwithian]

Again, I have to question why anyone playing Venice would actually want to use the MoV's ability to steal CSs. I'd much rather use any you get to put down Custom Houses and build a military to puppet Civs. CSs are your trading partners, and the Civs are your opponents. CSs can't win the game; other Civs can. Why give other Civs money/science/whatever with your trade routes when you can make completely one-sided 'trades' with the CSs?

What am I missing?

 

[Biologist]

Again, I have to question why anyone playing Venice would actually want to use the MoV's ability to steal CSs. I'd much rather use any you get to put down Custom Houses and build a military to puppet Civs. CSs are your trading partners, and the Civs are your opponents. CSs can't win the game; other Civs can. Why give other Civs money/science/whatever with your trade routes when you can make completely one-sided 'trades' with the CSs?

What am I missing?

Depends on who else is in the game, for one thing. If Alexander is in, and he declares war on you, you won't be trading with any of his little friends... but you could preemptively puppet them and at least get their resources and production.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Again, I have to question why anyone playing Venice would actually want to use the MoV's ability to steal CSs. I'd much rather use any you get to put down Custom Houses and build a military to puppet Civs. CSs are your trading partners, and the Civs are your opponents. CSs can't win the game; other Civs can. Why give other Civs money/science/whatever with your trade routes when you can make completely one-sided 'trades' with the CSs?

What am I missing?

How often to city-states have Natural Wonders nearby?

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

From my experience, A LOT.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Biologist: I guess. That does depend, though, on whether Alexander is allied with CSs or you. Something that I did tend to overlook is that unlike Austria Venice does not already need to be allied to yank a CS. (Another argument, IMO, that the abilities are different.)

Still, though, it seems a minor perk, and not something I would care to craft an entire strategy around.

Eagle: Well, I don't see it as all that much more common than otherwise, to be honest. OTOH, when those happen, and I really want the NW, I would generally Culture Bomb with a GG for it. Venice does have a problem doing that, I guess.

Still, there are few NWs I can think I would want more than a reliable trading partner, I should think. Then again, I seem to have a fundamentally different approach to the 'proper' way of playing the Venetians than everyone else here.

 

[Calouste]

Again, I have to question why anyone playing Venice would actually want to use the MoV's ability to steal CSs. I'd much rather use any you get to put down Custom Houses and build a military to puppet Civs. CSs are your trading partners, and the Civs are your opponents. CSs can't win the game; other Civs can. Why give other Civs money/science/whatever with your trade routes when you can make completely one-sided 'trades' with the CSs?

What am I missing?

- Trade routes with civs usually give more money than with city states.
- Can spread religion via trade routes to civs
- Can earn science from trade routes with civs that have different techs
- City states quite regularly have a natural wonder within their borders

 

[Crodface]

I hope when you declare war on Venice that Enrico Dandolo says: "Your intentions were so blatant, that even I saw what you were doing there."

DECLARE WAR

"Le tue intenzioni sono state così evidenti che anch'io potevo vederle!"

But then again, I do not speak Veneto.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Oh yeah, oil. That'll be a struggle again, but, you're alive. You have a puppet and your advantage is now about as cheaty as every other civ was over you turn 1.
Also amusing, Venice is a civ that doesn't want to get the corner.

Before today I was more excited by new systems than new civs, not really wanting to play as any of them day 1. But now I will play Venice day 1. And I will be missing one important way to muscle my opponent. My opponent is missing no way to muscle me. They have less gold?
Truly, Venice strats will be a measure of what gold and gold alone can do for a fight to the death.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Calouste: To take your points in order:

1) If I have the option to gain 8g per turn by giving 4g to one of my enemies, or to gain 4g per turn by giving nothing to any of my enemies, I think I would prefer the second option.

2) I can just as easily spread my religion to a CS bordering that Civ and use that CS as a vector of my religion to that Civ. Considering that I probably won't get one of the really nice Founder beliefs, I might take the Belief that doubles my pressure against CSs to capitalize on this.

3) This might be a reason, but that's also a two-way street. If I'm up in Tech, this is a reason NOT to give them a trade route.

4) That depends entirely on the NW involved, doesn't it? I can think of a few I would want, but I can think of equally many I could take or leave.

Now, here's my counter question. How do I change what you might call a 'default strategy' so that I can generate the MoVs to actually be able to do this?

 

[Merciorum]

When can we expect to see an official announcement/leader screen? Anyone have a guess?

 

[Dregor]

I don't like it. It's even more of a gimmick than Polynesia. Wasted civ slot IMO.

 

[JSMCAG]

When can we expect to see an official announcement/leader screen? Anyone have a guess?

We'll have it by the end of this week, I bet.
2K is to stream during E3, tomorrow at 3pm EDT, so keep an eye out for that!

 

[Cyanfunk]

Play cultural, have the capital pump out merchants and wonders while the puppet states build gold and culture buildings. Hmmm.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Cyan: How are you getting the Great Works to fill up your Culture buildings to get Tourism if you focus on Merchants over Artists? About the only way I know is Archaeologists, no?

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

- Trade routes with civs usually give more money than with city states.
- Can spread religion via trade routes to civs
- Can earn science from trade routes with civs that have different techs
- City states quite regularly have a natural wonder within their borders

- True, but you can be at war with one civilization, and trade with another...
- Amounts of religion pressure from trade routes are rather low. Not decisive, at least. It's easier to spread religion via missionaries, and maintain via trade routes
- Same here, and works in two ways.
- Some City states. As well as some civs

More I think about Venice more I like idea of diplo victory to be honest.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I guess one had better hope that you build your city somewhere with a 9 oil spot on it or you're done for in the modern era. You can still try to puppet a CS that does, but still, that's a pain and may not be available if another civ already takes it over by the time you can get a MoV there.

Then take it from the other civ.

This is like saying "you better hope the cities you built have oil somewhere. Sure, you could conquer a city from another civ, but it's a pain."