Venice Struggles

[beetle]

I do like having twice as many trade routes!

This means I'd get the Merchant of Venice before I've discovered all the CSs and thus wasn't able to determine the best ones to puppet.

Why worry about “best ones” when the only real criteria is two within early sea trade route range?

I think two early puppets >> two better puppets

Of late I've opted to send that early MOV on a trade mission to the nearest Religious or Cultural CS and ally them for the significant faith/culture boost. By the time I get my second MOV I've a much better idea of which CSs I want to be puppeting.

I think the net cost of that is a MOV -- and an early one too. If you get your puppets early, each of them is will generate an early MOV. As with other GP, the MOV cost counter keeps incrementing. If an early puppet doesn't get you a MOV before Venice generates its third one, you might not get one at all from that CS. All that said, I am reluctant to puppet a cultural CS.

From there I usually only puppet two CSs (for two food cargo ships to the capital) and use all future MOVs for trade missions.

This was difficult lesson for me -- that after the first couple, MOVs for trade missions >> more puppets. It makes perfect sense in hindsight, since for any civ a CS ally >> puppet.

All that gold means any victory condition is possible.

That does not follow. Gold does not help CV. Dom victories are bottlenecked by having only one good city to purchase units in -- so one land/sea unit per turn.

 

[FrostK]

-great merchants delays GS
-puppet science penalty kills any hope for ultrafast SV

 

[Sclb]

-great merchants delays GS
-puppet science penalty kills any hope for ultrafast SV

You want at least 2 coastal puppets within food cargo range to feed you capital. You don't care much about the science in puppets as long as you try to force them to work scientist slots. You'll not get fast SV with 1 city anyway.

 

[sixty4half]

That does not follow. Gold does not help CV. Dom victories are bottlenecked by having only one good city to purchase units in -- so one land/sea unit per turn.

You can only BUILD units in one city. You can purchase units in any of your puppets as Venice. Which is why my last puppet is always on the 2nd Continent, or if playing Pangea or Oval on the other side of the map. Instead of moving units across the world, I just buy a second army.

And you can buy dozens of meat shields a turn with Landsnekts. They're great when your in that era, but afterwards lose some "umph" so I just use them to surround my Artillery or more powerful ranged units.

 

[reddishrecue]

You can only BUILD units in one city. You can purchase units in any of your puppets as Venice. Which is why my last puppet is always on the 2nd Continent, or if playing Pangea or Oval on the other side of the map. Instead of moving units across the world, I just buy a second army.

And you can buy dozens of meat shields a turn with Landsnekts. They're great when your in that era, but afterwards lose some "umph" so I just use them to surround my Artillery or more powerful ranged units.

Landsneckts are great because then you could upgrade them to lancers and then anti tanks.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Every time I play Venice, I am spawned and settle immediately next to, but out of range of, over half the natural wonders that exist on the entire map.

And I go

"... okay."

... bait for people to forward settle me to get my conquer on? Venice don't do too bad if it puppets some cities. The moneybags really steamroll if you can seize initiative. It's so conditional though.... you have to be patient most of the time.

 

[helic0n]

Why worry about “best ones” when the only real criteria is two within early sea trade route range?

I think two early puppets >> two better puppets

I just like to see what CSs are out there before I puppet. Sometimes nearby ones might only have luxuries I already have. Or just plain bad dirt.

Also I find the delay means I'm more likely to have a navy that can protect my cargo ships from barbarians. It's infuriating to spend hammers on a cargo ship only for it to be pillaged next turn.

You may well be right that it's more optimal to puppet early, but I typically play on Immortal rather than Deity and I'm not fussed about minimising my turns to victory.

 

[beetle]

I am not fussed about minimizing turns to victory either, but I think not using the first MoV to puppet has to be carefully considered. Maybe an early ally could get you a religion or rocket you through the early SP tree? Your CS selection criteria seem very good. I am pretty aggressive scouting, so I almost always have a few choices for the first and second CS -- or there is no choice for the ones in range. I don't seem to have problems with barbs either -- except for the short period just after astronomy.

 

[MechMedic130]

I won't puppet any Cultural CS's, ever. It's just not worth it in the long run. Any other city state I'll at least consider. I try to puppet one that is relatively close to Venice to help assist with Venice's defense. If I'm playing a particularly watery map I try to make sure to have a few CS allies spread out so I can easily intervene militarily anywhere in the world.

I've beaten the game as Venice on Immortal and Deity, but my preferred difficulty is Emperor usually. I just don't like not being able to land any wonders in the game and micromanaging the whole time. Emperor for me is a nice sweet spot between challenge and fun.

 

[HughFran]

I just don't like not being able to land any wonders in the game and micromanaging the whole time. Emperor for me is a nice sweet spot between challenge and fun.

Totally agree, I don't mind the AI having a bit of a head start in terms of military (more units) and I don't mind if they tend to be more aggressive but I HATE that I keep getting beaten to wonders no matter how hard and quickly I work towards the tech that unlocks said wonder. I understand that Diety is meant to be really hard but it saps the fun out of the game when the AI can build everything twice as fast as you.