Vikings were in North America by 1021 CE
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PhroX
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I'd seen this headline crop up a few times across the internet today and I was rather surprised, because we already had pretty concrete evidence of Norse in North America. Turns out what's new is that they've gotten more confident in the dating. Which is still pretty interesting, but it's not anything revolutionary in terms of our understanding of the history of European contact with the New World.
Snowygerry
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To the Nordmen it was probably no "new" world at all - if they could get there 1021 they could get there long before,
more likely they found nothing of interest to them there - unlike the Spanish later...
more likely they found nothing of interest to them there - unlike the Spanish later...
EnglishEdward
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Thank you for posting that link.
I visited that site when I went on a bus tour of Newfoundland in 2003.
The guides reckoned they were there long enough to find and hot work local bog iron.
How long was the period they were raiding and expanding? I don't think it was that long of a period they were active? Can't be that far back in time they had the seafaring ability even to do it?
Snowygerry
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Idk - certainly by 1021 their heyday of raiding in (NW) Europe was over - either they had settled like in Britain or Normandy, or had been seen off.
I'm no expert - but I doubt their seafaring ability along the coast had changed much between the 9th and the 11th century...
By then they Viking homelands were being christened already.
I'm no expert - but I doubt their seafaring ability along the coast had changed much between the 9th and the 11th century...
By then they Viking homelands were being christened already.
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Snowygerry
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I've found the actual text of the Vinland Sagas online - yet to read fully but may be of interest to some 
https://archive.org/stream/voyagestovinland013593mbp/voyagestovinland013593mbp_djvu.txt
https://archive.org/stream/voyagestovinland013593mbp/voyagestovinland013593mbp_djvu.txt
innonimatu
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I've found the actual text of the Vinland Sagas online - yet to read fully but may be of interest to some
https://archive.org/stream/voyagestovinland013593mbp/voyagestovinland013593mbp_djvu.txt
Makes sense, same as Australia. Known to european sailors since the 16th century, but looked so worthless few bothered going there. Worthless because no developed or large population means no trade. No obvious precious resources and long distance means no interest to immigrants. And more promising lands near home means people are going to ignore those far away.
It was the (wrong) lure of the spice trade, and then of gold, combined with some crusader/prosiletizing ideas, that drove the conquest of the americas later. Even so North America was not initially attractive. Only the fishing banks. It took religious prosecution and refugees to kick up the conquest there. People were not attracted there so much as driven out from elsewhere.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
"European sailors" didn't know. Vikings knew. Significant difference; the fact that the knowledge was held only by a very small group means it was effectively lost.
And looking at the serious colonization of North America (XVIIth-XVIIIth century), the "religious persecution and refugee" claim is almost farcical. The closest thing to a religious minority safe haven colony was English Catholic Maryland (and that didn't last); the puritans liked to portray themselves as victims of persecution but they were the ones looking for a place where they could persecute their neighbors, really. Pretty much all other colonies were majority religion. And most of the immigration happened in time of peace and stability, not turmoil in the home country - when the home country had the means to support the colony, not when it struggled at home. The development of actual valuable resources in North America (Tobacco, Furs, etc) and eventually the easy availability of new land compared to an increasingly crowded Europe drove a lot of migration.
*Nineteenth* century immigration, once the North American countries largely managed themselves (internally at least) was much more like you describe, but that's not how they initially formed.
And looking at the serious colonization of North America (XVIIth-XVIIIth century), the "religious persecution and refugee" claim is almost farcical. The closest thing to a religious minority safe haven colony was English Catholic Maryland (and that didn't last); the puritans liked to portray themselves as victims of persecution but they were the ones looking for a place where they could persecute their neighbors, really. Pretty much all other colonies were majority religion. And most of the immigration happened in time of peace and stability, not turmoil in the home country - when the home country had the means to support the colony, not when it struggled at home. The development of actual valuable resources in North America (Tobacco, Furs, etc) and eventually the easy availability of new land compared to an increasingly crowded Europe drove a lot of migration.
*Nineteenth* century immigration, once the North American countries largely managed themselves (internally at least) was much more like you describe, but that's not how they initially formed.
Snowygerry
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Yes, even if it is probable the stories like the one above spread among non-Viking sailors, the fact that there was 'pretty worthless' land W/SW of Iceland/Greenland would be of little interest to most.
Europeans generally were not looking for land in the west, but for a faster route to the Indies, the Americas were 'in the way' so to say....
It is only in retrospect that the Viking 'discoveries' gained some significance - presumably in the 13th century when the sagas were written down.
Hm - the French Huguenots played their part as wel of course, as did those escaping Spanish Catholic persecution of Protestants in the southern Netherlands during the 80 year war, probably others too....but not in the timeframe you specify.
Europeans generally were not looking for land in the west, but for a faster route to the Indies, the Americas were 'in the way' so to say....
It is only in retrospect that the Viking 'discoveries' gained some significance - presumably in the 13th century when the sagas were written down.
Hm - the French Huguenots played their part as wel of course, as did those escaping Spanish Catholic persecution of Protestants in the southern Netherlands during the 80 year war, probably others too....but not in the timeframe you specify.
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Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
The Huguenots and others certainly played a part (mostly in the future US), but it was an overall fairly minimal part of the immigration in that period.
The main reason colonization started in earnest is that the land stopped being perceived as having no value.
The main reason colonization started in earnest is that the land stopped being perceived as having no value.
innonimatu
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Pretty much this everywhere. Which is why grand designs to send humans to Mars or some other off-planet place are not going to work...
Why do you think Mars has no value?
Moderator Action: Please stay on topic. Want to discuss the value of going to Mars, then please start another thread for that topic.
Vikings was a great series! Really enjoyed it. Not to sure about the follow up one "Valhalla". Can't be bothered to learn all new characters essentially doing the same thing?
Hygro
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THAT'S THE POINT!
AFTER SIX SEASONS IM KINDA DONE!
Hygro
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Meanwhile I'm out here liking it, The Last Kingdom, and that movie that came out this year.
Lexicus
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I would disagree with this. Indebtedness was enough to drive the European conquest of the Americas from a pretty early point.
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