Von Münchhausen III

Nice set Brichals. I've never been able to steal as many techs as we've stolen in this game. And we're not getting caught! Wow.

The gold for upgrading Frigates has gone down, but not as far as I remembered I see. Now that I'm thinking about it I've actually built Battleships in high production cities and deleted Frigates because of this. I think you're right about just keeping it to around 4 for now.

I don't have a chance to look at the save right now, but I'm guessing the turn times are fairly long for the remaining techs? If that's the case maybe postponing bulbing until 8 turns after we throw up a couple of Research Labs will save us some turns?
 
Yes the amount of techs we stole is very unusual. It seems the AI aren't even using constabularies etc. By this time it's normally 100 turns for a tech or something.

I think we might be able to burn a religion GS now just to get us into the atomic era faster. The first costs 1000 faith, and the second should be 1500, so in about 30 turns we get a new one anyway. We might also build a few temples for the happiness post fertilizer/tradition. The extra spy can help us with the CSes. It's just an option, saving some and bulbing later is also good but I'm generally too impatient for that (I'd forget if I didn't do it earlier :D)

I would also take Yzebel out of London before she tries to steal another tech, surely we don't want her to die, and we are soon tech leader anyway. Putting her in a CS would generate enough influence to ally them by the time of the UN vote probably.
 
Got the save, had a quick look. Yeah, some 70 turns worth of techs to finish the UN tech. That should be much shorter with some RA's still to come in. But then we're only just entitled to build the UN, and after it's finished we have to wait for some turns - is it 11 turns? - before there will be a vote.
I might still sign an RA if the conditions are decent; I don't think the 70 turns will become less than 30 with the existing RA's, although Grandad makes a decent point; we should always look whether an RA is still worth it or not. After my set it's probably indeed not worth it anymore.
For upcoming policy choice I think the free general is the most effective one, purely for the CS's that are asking for it. Two of which we have no influence with at all as yet. I'm thinking of offering protection straight away, then we should be almost allied with them at the end of my set, if the general comes in.
We need some 9 votes I believe, we are allied with 6 CS's, 2 more and we're nearly there.
I think you did well, Brichals, with holding off on more military upgrades and saving some money. Even if the AI starts to attack us, basically what we need is Carthage to build the UN and money to buy votes. The AI may blast the rest of our towns to pieces and it wouldn't make any difference anymore at this late stage.
The only game of Civ 5 I ever played to the end was a diplo win, and I won it with just archers and warriors. I had 2 towns in the middle of a pangaea, thinking I could always upgrade when someone started to attack me. All the AI did was insulting my puny military, it never attacked. So I certainly feel safe here. With Gods & Kings the AI has become even more docile. For the whole of this game I was hoping that the AI was going to do what it has never done in a Von Münchhausen game, which is to choose the attack, but you can probably play a dozen games without that ever happening. It's not Civ III. Yeah, there was this warrior rush by Harald in the first game, but you can on that happening, after putting your first town straight in the direction of the AI, in a spot with so many resources around it. That's asking for it.
 
We're moving along nicely, even if the turns are getting pretty long.

As for the GScientist with faith, that's the way to go. Now, if it takes 30 turns to faithbuy the next GP, will be buy another GSci or even a GEng, by picking Order somewhere down the line. Or can we just get one ourselves? It would shave of a fair few turns if we could burn an engineer on UN, as I discreetly mention 2-3 times during the game. :)

Also, I think we can easily just save gold now to buy the necessary CS, just before the vote. Still, if we want to monger a bit, Gandhi might be gone soon and if we resurrect him we get his vote, Sidon is already in that position. But warring here and now is very tedious, especially as Lizzy is building stuff to the left and the right. Better for us to safeguard the future by building bombers and battleships.

There's also the odd way how the AI's gives their votes, in one game 3 of my lifelong friends just gave their vote to me, so the money I'd put into CS's wasn't needed, I got 15 votes instead of the 12 needed. Was a bit surprised with that.
 
There is a CS that just called for an engineer, but I didn't think it was an option. But if we think we might take order to buy a GE then I am easily swayed. I thought I should mention because I didn't put it in the report IIRC.

I normally like to finish trees because the finishers are so strong, but in this game anyway, we will only get 2-3 more policies and I think we can't really finish any trees and get a good amount of time from the bonus. So opening order just to get a GE will not be too bad. 1 GS and 1 GE costs 2000 faith, 2 GS costs 2500 faith.
 
As I'm still new to Gods & Kings, I wasn't very aware of the great people buy option with faith, but then a great engineer would definitely be the way to go, for speeding up the UN. Scientist + engineer for our faith points seems the way to go.
If I'm not mistaken , the formula for engineer rushing is 300 :c5production: + 30 for every citizen. Would that mean 810 :c5production: for 17 citizens? UN costs 1500 :c5production:, so that would halve the production time. I think the engineer is a must do.

I'm just trying to see how fast our policies are coming in. We need 2800 :c5culture: for the current threshold, making 138 :c5culture: per turn. That's about 20 turns for a policy. Next one comes in in 9 turns, I'm assuming the one after that will be more expensive and come in beyond 29 turns from now if we don't do anything. We could ally Jerevan straight away if we throw some money at it, we already have 18 influence with them. That would speed both culture and science up a bit. I'm very tempted to do that, never mind them being hostile. We won't send them pies, as we want to use our faith points better, so we need to throw money and then I rather do it straight away - I want to have my pie and eat it!
Also I could throw some citizens in culture slots. In general I'm of the opinion we've been way too fast filling up specialist slots - mainly scientists - in this game, stifling growth and therefore science in the long term, but right now I don't mind if a city remains at zero growth for the rest of the game after gaining a new citizen. We're close to the finish line.

2 policies is the max we'll still be getting in this game, not more, so then I'm suggesting Warrior Code and Order.

Considering science, I saw Utique only needs 219 science points to deliver the next scientist. At the going rate of 9 points per turn that would mean another scientist in 24 turns. So we're getting at least 2 scientists still, one from faith and one from a town.

I wonder if it's fun to do the Statue of Liberty in Carthage first - 1 :c5production: for every specialist. It won't make an awful lot of difference; if there's objections I won't start it.

I'm pretty tired right now, have a bit of a cold and then after work I'm knackered. It also didn't help that I missed a text saying that I was needed from 10 - 6 today, so I just showed up at my usual time of 7, and then worked until 6.
I've been lucky that most of my sets fell in the weekend sofar, I hope I'm a bit better for playing this for thursday or friday or so. Somehow I can hardly see myself posting my set before the weekend, sorry, I can do it fine after work if I feel well, but I'm a bit under the weather. If Grandad is really eager he may certainly take this before me, I'm not counting on that, but you know, just offering the possibility.
I'm certainly mentally fresh for the game, it's physically now that I'm not 100%.
 
I was wondering what had happened to those scheduled trips to Bristol! You've put me a more at ease now.

My cold is mostly gone, I've played my set. I'll need another evening to put the report up, or half an evening, as I don't have full evenings with these late shifts I'm doing now.
There's not an awful lot to report though, everything's just plodding along nicely. We're allied with 10 of the 11 CS's still in the game now. Some Research Labs have been started. I didn't start the Statue of Liberty yet, because I had forgotten about the Research Labs when I suggested the wonder. I think a Research Lab first in Carthage is better.
Science isn't exactly going like a rocket, the RA with Oda that came in was a bit disappointing, and I signed a new one with him. Still a lot of turns to go.
I'll give a screen that came in at the end of my set:
Spoiler :
 
Most well fed. Must be the Maritime CSs.

My guess is we're making more science per turn than Oda so he was probably the limiting factor for the beaker out put of the last RA. I wish we were using info addict so I could check.... blah blah blah :lol:

Nice work on getting all the CS allies. Some one (I'm looking at you Liz) needs to kill Gandhi now so our influence goes back to dropping at a slower rate!
 
I think that's a permanent effect (completing Patronage). Even if he dies, I think our rate of decay stays the same.

I'm very surprised we were able to keep those friendships the whole game with the likes of Nobunaga and GW. I agree with Optional about the AI being surprisingly timid in our games. I don't know why, but in all of the games I play at this level, it's almost a guarantee that I'll be attacked at a couple of somewhat predictable points in the game. I think the islands (or small continents) map is to blame for this.

This game was also a good example of the strength of Machu Picchu. Didn't we build it in the last game we played too? I've always liked this wonder, but now I'm thinking it might be the most important build in CiV.
 
Most well fed. Must be the Maritime CSs.
I think it's because I'm playing 5th that I'm always getting these overviews. Turn 50, turn 100, 150, 200, etc... I've always put the screenshots up, but it's not always relevant. The top bar is more interesting, I think.
grandad1982 said:
My guess is we're making more science per turn than Oda so he was probably the limiting factor for the beaker out put of the last RA. I wish we were using info addict so I could check.... blah blah blah :lol:
The ones with Oda have always been very disappointing, so yes, it's him.
NotSure said:
This game was also a good example of the strength of Machu Picchu. Didn't we build it in the last game we played too? I've always liked this wonder, but now I'm thinking it might be the most important build in CiV.
Carthage + Machu Picchu is certainly very strong. I'm surprised about the money we were able to make here with so few rivers.
I think both SG's are also good examples of how strong a good first settler move can be. If we hadn't moved our settler here, we would have lost out on 2 wonders; both Petra and Machu Picchu would not have been possible, and in Von Münchhausen II we gained at least a couple of quarries with it.

Okay, the turns:

1650AD, turn 240 (inherited turn);
Warsaw + Budapest we pledge protection (I later notice it should have been Jakarta instead of Budapest, as Budapest was asking for a Great Admiral, not a Great General).
Move Yzebel from London to Warsaw.
I put 1000 gold in Jerevan for an immediate alliance. Next policy in 8 turns instead of 9.
Hippo Regius has not yet a hammer invested in the triplane. Instead of the triplane I'll build a Temple here, for 2 happy. A Temple is relatively cheap; costs only 5 turns to build.

IBT;
George Washington enters the Modern Era.
Successfully rigged elections: Ragusa and Jerevan.

1655AD, turn 241;
We are now friends with Ragusa and need only 4 influence points more to surpass England. I'm not going to mull over that; 500 gold in Ragusa and they join our club.
I'm moving the successful spies to places where we have no influence yet; Budapest en Jakarta.
Carthago Nova; Factory > Bank
A little aside:
A factory gives 10% extra production + 4 hammers.
Here that works out as 2.76 + 4 = 6.76 hammers per turn (looking at current production of 27.6 hammers per turn).
Because the factory itself Factory costs 360 hammers, this investment will only have earnt itself back after 53 turns from now (360 ÷ 6.76). The game might be over by that time, and then the Factory has only given us a loss of production! That's still overlooking the 3 gpt it costs to maintain.
This team quite often fails to look whether a building gives a good and quick enough return. Especially with smaller towns this props up, as the costs to build and maintain are similar as in a big town, but the returns are normally much less.

IBT;
India denounces America.
RA with Oda comes in, not giving many research turns. Still some 70 turns of research to go (I thought we were at 70 at the start of my set, but I must have miscounted).
New quest Brussels: Ask tribute from Kuala Lumpur. Nah.

1660AD, turn 242;
Plastics > Atoms
Utique; Triplane > Research Lab.

IBT;
Japan denounces England.
We win Kuala Lumpur's culture quest; + 40 influence.
Liz puts on a record by Blondie called Atomic (Elizabeth enters Atomic Age).

1665AD, turn 243;
Oda has more money now than in the last turn, so I'm signing a new RA with him. I must first give him 124 gold for 4 gpt (done in 4 bits), then still I must throw a bit more at it:
Spoiler :

IBT;
Oda calls us that Liz is plotting against us. I don't think ever one of those predictions has been correct in this game. We're already scanning Liz' actions by having units with good vision near her borders. I'm not changing policy.
New quest Warsaw: Culture. Good.

1670AD, turn 244;
Saguntum; Factory > Temple (6 followers in Saguntum)
The Factory maths here is that it will do 2.42 + 4 = 6.42 hammers per turn.
360 ÷ 6.42 = 56 turns from now before the Factory will start to give us something back.
Hmm...

IBT;
Oda :c5war: Washington.
Oda and Gandhi sign friendship.
It looks like George is starting to lose the dressing room. I don't mind that we haven't got that Defense Pact with George anymore, as it would have been pointless to start a war with Oda now.
Washington asks for an extension of our friendship deal:

George is not very popular anymore, but I think there's a good chance we get his vote if we stay friends, and with the others I don't know. I extend our friendship, although I understand somebody else might have made a different call here.

1675AD, turn 245;
Hippo Regius finishes the Temple, but we're not gaining happiness. Oh, the city should also have also belonged to our religion? I actually knew that, but it had slipped my mind.
Hippo Regius; Temple > Research Lab (20 turns; borderline useful)
Carthage; Triplane > Research Lab
A worker finishes an oil platform, so sell 4 oil to Oda for 180 gold.

IBT;
Renewal Ivory deal with Oda; 20 gold + 7 gpt.
New quest Jakarta; Science. Probably not going to work, with us researching very horizontally from now on.

1680AD, turn 246;
Sell 3 more oil to Oda for 135 gold. We have 32 oil in total, mostly from CS, so whatever we have spare we can easily sell.

IBT;
Rio de Janeiro want Venice bullied. Not something we want anything to do with.

1685AD, turn 247;
Horses (1) to Washington ends, resell to Oda for 45 gold.
Coal to Gandhi also ends, but we have ours all in use now; nothing to resell.

IBT;
Hippo Regius adopts pies. Excellent; now the temple gives happiness.
New quest Warsaw; Statue of Liberty.

1690AD, turn 248;
We can choose a new policy and we go for Warrior Code.
3 CS's acknowledge our General, among which Warsaw and Jakarta. Florence was the other one.
I see now I should have pledged with Jakarta instead of Budapest - it's always the same great person symbol that shows up behind the CS name, so it's easy to mix them up.
Never mind, I'm putting 500 in Warsaw and 500 in Jakarta to ally them both. We are now allied with 10 of the 11 CS's still on the map (Sidon has been conquered by England).
Spices to America has ended, but Washington is a little poor just now. I'm trading the spices for his spare copper instead, this might even be better, since we are getting science for excess happiness (part of Rationalism opener).
Carthago Nova; Bank > Public School

IBT;
Washington signs peace with Jakarta - I hadn't noticed they were at war.

1695AD, turn 249;
Saguntum; Temple > Opera House
A Research Lab would have taken 23 turns here, and I rather build something that will give a return earlier.
Horses (3) to Darius ended; resell to Oda for 135 gold.

IBT;
Persia denounces England.

1700AD, turn 250;
Left for next player.

Next policy is to come in in 15 turns. Our culture has sped up quite a bit in my set, must be through the new cultural CS's.

I haven't upgraded any units. Without any direct military threat or military plan I never see much use in that. I've put it all in CS's, so we still got a significant surge in scientific and cultural development, even though we didn't finish a single science or culture building.

This is the intrigue overview:

Budapest is the only CS we are not allied with as yet.

Excess happiness is interesting with the Rationalism opener. I wouldn't automatically sell spare resources for money anymore. If we can trade for luxes this gives us science:

The total science from excess happiness goes up slowly, I think this means it's calculated over a number of turns, not just the current one.

Atomic Theory is to come in next turn. Techs I've queued all the way to Globalization. I don't normally queue things, but I believe there's nothing else to do here than to go straight for the UN.
 
Another solid set and good work on getting those CS. :)

Nothing to add really, if we don't want to build expensive buildings that doesn't pay us back, maybe just build a few more units and build research for the rest of the game? I don't know how much science that would give us, but shaving a turn or two wouldn't hurt?

Perhaps a couple more ships and a few bombers and then we just hunker down.

Is there a chance to get another GSci before the game is over? And I'll remind you'll, that we should buy a GEng for faith later. Depending on how our RA's works out and IF we can get a GSci naturally, I think we have around 60 turns to go. Is there a point to even try to steal anything at this stage, don't really think so.

Will look at the save tomorrow, no time today.
 
Ok, got the chance to look at it for a moment.

I just love how humble Optional are in his projections. :lol:

Ok first, we have 56 turns to Globalization, it sounds like a hell of a lot, but consider this:

Carthage is building a Research lab, done in 3 turns. Utique is doing the same, done in 4 turns! And we have other cities building research stuff as well, why not throw in 920g on Gades to build their Public school and set them on research.

Research labs doesn't give you more than your actual science in that city, but even 25% of the figure you look at is better than what we have. Like Carthage is doing 104 with scientists, but have 57 as base, then Research labs comes in and swaps all these figures to garbage. Still I hope Carthage would make around 30, maybe 35 more science when the lab is completed. This with other building being made, we're soaring in science atm!

So, finish off all science buildings that are close, or set cities on research NOW, maybe except a city or two that builds more units. I looked quickly and if ALL cities was on research now, that would add nearly 100 beakers. Which of course is not doable, until we finished those other buildings. Then we probably get 130-140 beakers by building research.

But really, our core has 11 units watching anda couple of boats, while southern cities have a fair few ships and 5-6 units. I don't Lizzy can take that without going warcrazy.

I still don't like her, and she won't give anything fair for any deal. Anyways, let her sook.

So please consider this!

Now comes the interesting stuff! :)

Utique will have another scientist born in 12 turns, IF we plop another sci into the spot when the lab is made, then let the city go research. I doubt we'll get another one before end of time, as Carthage has 24 turns for their sci and the 3 extra points from another specialist will prolly take some 40-50 turns.

Still, we have more leverage than just this, we have 3 RA's maturing soonish. We're at turn 250, so George at t264, Darius at 270 and Oda at 274 will just crush mine and Optional's predictions of the finish-date.

And almost last, we have saved our faith and have 1645 faith atm, and making 43/turn. A scientist would cost 1000F, so continue saving until we pop the next SP, which should be Order, so we can buy an GEng for UN. Just maybe we can squeeze in another scientist with saved faith-points?

Renew a fur-deal with Oda for 3 oil and some gold/gpt, we might have a chance for a Golden age too, just in time for the UN? Lizzy has 3 more goodies we would like to have, but offers a trade of Salt for our 5 oils, 285g and OB. Just a little bit steep for me, or any of us I hope!

I said before to just buy that public school in Gades, better to upgrade the crap we have now. An offer like that is almost always a declaration of war coming.

And we live in peace, not pieces.

Well, this took longer to write down than figure out. Consider my points and the game will be over before you knew it! :)
 
Lovely set and nice report. Good work on nabbing all those CSs.

I've read the comments that follow but won't comment till I've looked at the save and maybe re-read everything.
 
Nice set Optional. I'm interested to see if moving our spies around will be effective. I normally keep them in one place out of fear that I'll loose influence to spies with a longer presence in those city states. I've always been under the impression that the rank of spies and the number of consecutive turns in a CS determined who rigged elections and the success rate of coups. I'll definitely be changing that strategy if we're successful here.

It looks like my prediction about Oda and GW came true. I would've made the same decision regarding that friendship proposal from GW. I'm counting on his vote in the UN.

I haven't had a chance to look at the save. I'll check it out now and post if I think I have something useful to add. I thought we had a sleeping GS or two? Anyway, the Research Labs seem to be the biggest boost to research in the game. I think they're almost always worth building. If we bulb eight turns after we finish the lab in Carthage we should shave off a good number of turns. I'd be surprised if we weren't building the UN by the time Optional plays again.

If we stop production in some or most of our cities I'd choose gold over research. I've noticed some CS buyouts and a little coup chaos after the UN is built in my games. It's nice to have a pile of gold to recover a CS or two. Seems like we might be playing a risky game by choosing not to upgrade our navy too. It might be nice to have a little gold in case we have to defend ourselves or one of our city states?
 
Ok had a peek and this is what I think.

The only cities that I would consider not building wealth/science are Carthage and Utique. After they have finish there current builds I would switch them all to wealth production. I want to build up a big balance to ensure CS retention and so we can upgrade some units if we need to. I'd consider even upgrading our boats with out needing to.

In Gades I would consider buying the public school as it will net 16:c5science: per turn if the spec slot is filled. I think. It is pretty expensive though and would cost around 5 turns of income.

I suggest Carthage builds the Eiffel Tower after the research lab as not only is it a CS quest but will guarantee us being :) for the rest of the game without spending hammers in other cities on more infrastructure and more gold on their upkeep. After this maybe just build units here not that it would be in my set.

Utique could maybe buy a barrack and then build an armoury and become a dedicated unit pump after it finishes its research lab. Or forget the XP buildings and bust build some more planes.

I'll also tweak the specs being worked etc, e.g. Gades will work all its spec slots (gold!).

On the diplo front I'll buy the fur form Oda to get us closer to our next GA. I'll also keep the CSs on side.

I think thats it really.
 
I just had a look at the save. We have two RA that will resolve in my set and a natural GS birth. I'm guesstimating we could get to Globalization in my set without buying a GS with faith, or come pretty close. Was that the plan?

The only thing I would add is we might want to take a look at our citizens. I think we should work the mine in Hippo Regius for example (takes 3 turns off of the current build) and I'd take that citizen off of Old Faithful in Saguntum. I'd also citadel-bomb that fish tile near Saguntum, but that might just be enough to get a war out of Liz.

Edit - I forgot about the Temples. We can knock out two Temples in those southern cities and build the Grand Temple in the capital in 4 turns. That's 4 happiness and 12 faith per turn, which might be enough to get us two great persons by the end of the game. We're building an Opera House in Saguntum now. We've actually gone out of our way to avoid those builds, so it might not pay off at this point. Oh, and I wouldn't buy that Public School Grandad. I don't think it's necessary.
 
First off, we need to spend faith on that GEngineer, to hurry up UN, we might get another GSci with faith before end of time, but I want that faith saved for the GEng. Later on we can calculate (what a horrid word) :lol:.

We make 180gpt, WHY on earth would we need more? I explained before, that IF we put our cities on Research, it gives us 100 beakers a turn! Isn't that enough to chop off a turn or two of the total progress?

Money is nothing now, and Lizzy can't do anything but take a city or 2 in our south area, which wouldn't matter for our winning condition. Stuff searching for more gold and find beakers, that is what wins this game! 100 beakers/turn times 40 is another tech.

We have enough money per turn to do what we want, we don't need to end the game with 23K in the coffers.

Notsure: If you want a building done early, by sacrificing growth, do it! It's not like our science will improve hugely if you get another citizen in that town. If you read my reports, I do that a LOT! It means the city could be bigger, but instead we got that building 3-4 turns earlier, which will benefit the city to the end of time.

We have a safe deal with all the CS's, only the AI putting in more money into them can stop that. But we're richer than anybody, say 50 turns more by 180 gpt, we can even upgrade stuff for 4-5K without a problem.

You guys are so narrow. Think BIG and outside the box.
 
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