Vote for your 3 civs you would most like to see : Final Results

[The Kingmaker]

Other way around actually. We definitely have languages they could speak--Natchez, Chickasaw, etc. The problem is that any Mississippian leader who is historically attested would be the equivalent of making Romulus Augustulus the leader of Rome.

I was thinking it's more like putting in Cuauhtemoc of the Aztecs when you were actually hoping for Spearthrower Owl of Teotihuacan.

 

[Zaarin]

And that's as unlikely as ... well ... making Dido the Carthaginian leader. I mean, really, that could never happen....

In what way? Dido, AKA Elissa, was probably a historical personage who was probably instrumental in the founding of Carthage and most likely did not throw herself on a pyre on account of love sickness, the Aeneid notwithstanding. Yes, there are a lot of "probablies" in there, but she's still a better choice of ruler than Romulus Augustulus or Quigaltam (probably one of the better candidates for "Mississippian" leaders). I might prefer Hiram of Tyre or any one of the Barcids--Hamilcar, Hasdrubal the Fair, Hannibal--but if Elissa showed up as leader of the Carthiginians again, I wouldn't complain. She'd stand out as still being a better choice than Cleopatra, Catherine de Medici, or Gilgamesh.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I assumed he was thinking of Romulus, the legendary founder of Rome and brother of Remus, rather than Romulus Augustulus, Rome's ironically-named last emperor.

 

[Zaarin]

...That would make more sense, except that I was explicitly talking about Romulus Augustulus. Plus I'm reasonably certain that Romulus the Founder of Rome (much like Aeneas the Founder of Rome) is 100% fictional, which still makes the comparison a false analogy, since there is at least some reason to believe Dido/Elissa was historical. (It's worth noting that Elissa is a Punic name cognate to Elizabeth [at a guess, the Punic form is probably something like ʾilīsibt or ʾilīsebit]).

 

[The Kingmaker]

I've also seen Elissa's name rendered as "Elishat."

 

[Zaarin]

Also possible, which in Punic would give something like ʾilīsot.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I was thinking it's more like putting in Cuauhtemoc of the Aztecs when you were actually hoping for Spearthrower Owl of Teotihuacan.

You know, speaking of Teotihuacan... they're another extremely civ-worthy group that has just a few issues with representation.

We know of a few leaders, but we're not sure on the language.

One person I'd really like to see is Siyaj K'ak' (Fire is Born), the Teotihuacano warlord and conqueror of the Mayan heartlands. Sadly, I doubt we'll get a Teotihuacan civ. Maybe he could be a leader for the Maya? It may not be the best fit, but he definitely comes across as a big personality.

If anything, I'm itching for a Teotihuacan wonder. The only time we've gotten to see the Pyramid of the Sun was in the Civ II Native American scenario. Seems like a pretty glaring omission.

 

[Zaarin]

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the Zapotec, but I'd be astonished to see three Mesoamerican civilizations, and I have to concede that I'd prioritize the Mayans over the Zapotec.

 

[dunkleosteus]

The Inuit have plenty of city names in their own language, even some that existed prior to contact with Europeans such as Iqaluit. It wouldn't be terribly hard nor much of a stretch to use names of Arctic towns that are currently populated by mostly Inuit and have Inuktitut names, like Igloolik and Inuvik

You could also use legendary leaders like Apanuugpak, Ekeuhnik, or someone else from a large collection of oral tradition.

Even so, I don't see the Inuit as a good choice in Civilization. They don't really embody any of the attributes that "Civilization" seems to laud, (which is a controversial point of view itself) the Inuit were, for all intents and purposes, hunter gatherers. Due to how far north they lived, the agricultural revolution never really reached them. They sort of exist before the tech tree. For that reason, I don't think they belong as a Civ.

I don't mean to belittle the culture or heritage of the Inuit, and it would certainly be nice to see maybe an Iqaluit city state but that's as far as I think would be warranted.

 

[Guandao]

Even so, I don't see the Inuit as a good choice in Civilization. They don't really embody any of the attributes that "Civilization" seems to laud, (which is a controversial point of view itself) the Inuit were, for all intents and purposes, hunter gatherers. Due to how far north they lived, the agricultural revolution never really reached them. They sort of exist before the tech tree. For that reason, I don't think they belong as a Civ.

I don't mean to belittle the culture or heritage of the Inuit, and it would certainly be nice to see maybe an Iqaluit city state but that's as far as I think would be warranted.

The Shoshone were hunter-gatherers and looked what happened in Brave New World.

 

[Zaarin]

The Shoshone were hunter-gatherers and looked what happened in Brave New World.

The Shoshone of BNW weren't really the Shoshone, though; they were clearly representing their close cousins the Comanche. The Comanche had a major raid-based civilization in the Southwest that at one time had both Mexico and the United States as tributaries. (I'm not implying that the US or Mexico were dominated by the Comanche, but they did pay tribute to them to maintain order in the region.) It's a very different situation with the Inuit, who existed in small bands of only a handful of families at most due to the low carrying limit of their environment. Also, strictly speaking, the Shoshone bred horses, which is a kind of husbandry which makes it a kind of agriculture, even if those horses were introduced by the Spanish.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The Shoshone of BNW weren't really the Shoshone, though; they were clearly representing their close cousins the Comanche. The Comanche had a major raid-based civilization in the Southwest that at one time had both Mexico and the United States as tributaries. (I'm not implying that the US or Mexico were dominated by the Comanche, but they did pay tribute to them to maintain order in the region.) It's a very different situation with the Inuit, who existed in small bands of only a handful of families at most due to the low carrying limit of their environment. Also, strictly speaking, the Shoshone bred horses, which is a kind of husbandry which makes it a kind of agriculture, even if those horses were introduced by the Spanish.

'Shoshone' with Comanche riders was more than a bit of a stretch, even for Firaxis. The Comanche and the Nez Perce of the Northwest were, I believe, the only two Native American tribes to actually breed horses for specific traits. As far as I know, they were also the only tribe that actually moved the frontier Back 150+ miles, as a large section of northwest Texas had to be abandoned to them when the protecting US troops marched off to fight a Civil War in 1861. As another footnote to the Comanche, according to their own oral tradition (and that of their close neighbors, the Kiowa) they had been maize farmers in the north Texas-western Oklahoma area and abandoned it once they got the horse. In one of the 'treaty meetings' when the US rep told them that the Great Greedy White Father would give them seeds and show them how to farm, no one could understand why the listening Kiowa and Comanche chiefs were falling over laughing.

And, yes, the Comanche would make a much better 'plains' tribe than the Lakotah: the trick would be to differentiate them from Scythians, Huns, or Mongols ...

One of our secretaries at the Artillery School at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, was a full-blood Kiowa who kept a big sticker on the front of her desk:

"Custer Had It Coming."

 

[The Kingmaker]

Some brief thoughts on potential civs in response to some inquiries on the Never-Seen Civ elimination thread.

I thought about the Minoans but we really have no idea what their language sounded like, and that's key for inclusion in game. I guess they could use Minos or Pasiphae as a leader, but I'd prefer it if we had more options. I'd love to see them depicted some day as I find their culture fascinating. Get to work translating Linear A!

I realize the Toltecs have similar challenges to the Minoans, but I made an exception since we're much more limited in our selection of Mesoamerican civs compared to Europe. (As for the leader, I find Topiltzin to actually be very similar to Gilgamesh - a legendary priest-king that has been deified.) The Zapotecs at least are well-documented with languages and leader names.

Re: Akkad, I didn't want to press my luck, since I want two other Akkadian-speaking civs in game (Assyria and Babylon), plus they've already got Gilgamesh speaking Akkadian instead of Sumerian. Sargon > Gilgamesh in my opinion though.

Lydia could be a possibility, although I felt I had a lot of middle eastern options present already. I was already using slash marks to cram in multiple regional options in the same entries as it is. Sorry Croesus didn't make the cut for the thread.

I'd prefer the Pueblo to the Apache, but they objected to the depiction of their language and leaders. At least Geronimo is a possibility as a widely known figure with a big personality, hence the Apaches.

 

[Zaarin]

It would be fantastic if Linear A and Minoan Hieroglyphics were finally decoded. The implications for our understanding of pre-Indo-European languages of Europe would be significant, whether it were an isolate or could be demonstrated to be related to Etrusco-Rhaetian, Vasconic, Paleo-Iberian, one of the Caucasian languages, or whatever. (I think most linguists agree that it doesn't look Indo-European, but I suppose it could surprise us in that direction, too.) Unfortunately, without more samples (ideally bilingual samples) I don't see Linear A being deciphered in the near future.

Lydia would be an interesting inclusion, but I can't see them being included over their close kin the Hittites.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Agreed, plus the Hittites have precedent since they were in Civ3.

What we really need for the Minoans is a royal edict or something written in both Linear A and Linear B. (Call it the Hagia Triada Stone instead of Rosetta.)

They've worked translation miracles in the past. Hittite was apparently a hard nut to crack, but at least we knew the script (cuneiform), if not the language.

 

[Zaarin]

Or even a receipt in both Linear A and Demotic (given that the Minoans and Egyptians were active trading partners) or Linear A and Phoenician (also active trading partners, plus the Phoenicians and other Canaanites hired Cretan mercenaries).

I'm not sure Hittite was so much difficult to translate (albeit it's work that's still ongoing) as it was simply discovered late and then sent shockwaves through the entire field of PIE studies, since it proved beyond question Saussure's laryngeal theory. It would certainly have been easier than some earlier languages given just how many languages we already knew how to read using cuneiform writing (Sumerian, Akkadian, Old Persian, Elamite, Hurrian, Urartian, early Canaanite, some inscriptions in Egyptian, etc.).

Probably the greatest achievement of that sort was deciphering the Mayan syllabary, but it's helpful that there are still Mayan languages spoken. We don't even know where to look for relatives of Minoan; it's not even clear if it's related to the later Etiocypriot language.

 

[The Kingmaker]

The breakthrough with Hittite was when the would-be translator figured out that it was Indo-European instead of Semitic like he thought it ought to be. It's a pretty neat story which I bet you've already heard, but I'm reposting for everyone else's sake.

He transliterated these lines from the cuneiform:

nu ninda en e-iz-za-te-ni
wa-a-tar-ma e-ku-ut-te

He knew that ninda was bread because it was a familiar ideogram, but it wasn't until he recognized "wa-a-tar" as water that he realized the mistake. The phrase meant, "Now you shall eat bread and drink water."

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

He transliterated these lines from the cuneiform:

nu ninda en e-iz-za-te-ni
wa-a-tar-ma e-ku-ut-te

He knew that ninda was bread because it was a familiar ideogram, but it wasn't until he recognized "wa-a-tar" as water that he realized the mistake. The phrase meant, "Now you shall eat bread and drink water."

Drink WATER?! What was the inscription, a formal Curse? (Sorry, they don't have a Hittite Smilie)

 

[Morningcalm]

Hittites would be great! Some three-man chariot unit would be nice (I think the Wonders of the Ancient World scenario in Civ V already used something similar, given Hittite chariots generally being better than Egypt's for some time).

 

[The Kingmaker]

In response to a comment on the elimination thread, I actually think the Cherokee could be quite feasible with Sequoyah as a leader.

And on a completely different topic, here are some possible inspirations for Zenobia leader art. Go Palmyra!