Rekk
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
- Messages
- 2,614
Where CS is normally shown. What do you mean?
Vox Populi Congress Proposal Workshop
- Thread starter Recursive
- Start date
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- Tags
- vp congress
Rekk
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
- Messages
- 2,614
Pretty sure that's how it works in vanilla.
jarcast2
Janitor Raccoon
I'd like to notify that at the moment it is impossible to add individual Naval Units purchasable with Faith in the same way it is possible to add Land Units purchasable with Faith (conditional on RequiresFaithPurchaseEnabled=0) because of how in the DLL it has been tied exclusively to Spain trait.
It is possible to have a fix for this asymmetry?
Do I need to make a github issue?
It is possible to have a fix for this asymmetry?
Do I need to make a github issue?
Yes to both.
So in my opinion, the least fun part of this mod has always been the neverending wars of attrition. I'm talking about when you and your neighbor are roughly equally strong yet they decide to just fight you forever, with neither side ever being strong enough to gain an advantage. After an eternity they request peace because their war weariness is too high, only to declare war again as soon as the peace treaty ends. This slows the game to absolute crawl. At some point I usually just stop playing out of boredom. The only solution that I have found if playing a peaceful civ on higher difficulties is to just restart if I have an aggressive neighbor, which is lame.
I have a couple ideas that could maybe help with this. Not sure how hard these would be to implement. Other ideas are welcome.
1. Aggressor civ's war weariness with the attacked civ goes right back to where it was if they attack again; your people are tired of trying to conquer that civilization. So if civ A attacks civ B, requests peace, and then attacks again, their war weariness will be the same as before they requested peace. The war weariness would not carry forward if civ B attacked civ A after peace.
2. Alternatively, a penalty for declaring war and then not winning; your people are furious at you for wasting their lives for nothing. Not winning would be defined as a war score less than 25. The penalty could be something like increased unhappiness and a permanent increased rate of war weariness when fighting that same civ.
Thoughts or other ideas?
I have a couple ideas that could maybe help with this. Not sure how hard these would be to implement. Other ideas are welcome.
1. Aggressor civ's war weariness with the attacked civ goes right back to where it was if they attack again; your people are tired of trying to conquer that civilization. So if civ A attacks civ B, requests peace, and then attacks again, their war weariness will be the same as before they requested peace. The war weariness would not carry forward if civ B attacked civ A after peace.
2. Alternatively, a penalty for declaring war and then not winning; your people are furious at you for wasting their lives for nothing. Not winning would be defined as a war score less than 25. The penalty could be something like increased unhappiness and a permanent increased rate of war weariness when fighting that same civ.
Thoughts or other ideas?
It's too easy to lure AI into being the aggressor (even among themselves). We shouldn't give defenders more advantages.
We can somewhat alleviate this issue with a casus belli system where a civ gets less war weariness/warmonger score if they have a valid casus belli, no matter who declares war.
We can somewhat alleviate this issue with a casus belli system where a civ gets less war weariness/warmonger score if they have a valid casus belli, no matter who declares war.
Nah, it would lead to stalemate on military side very easily.
I agree.
This would be cool! Shame the proposal phase is over.
Casus Belli system is in the roadmap.
Proposal series: Terrain Feature Tweaks
Proposal 1:
I want to revisit the notion of having Atolls behave as water-hills: +1 terrain height, 15% defense bonus to ships stationed over them, 2 movement cost.
Edit: Great Barrier Reef also has a defense bonus. Consider creating parity with this modifier for consistency purposes.
Proposal 2:
As a companion to changing Atolls, look into adding a "stormy ocean" type of tile. 2 movement cost, blocks line of sight (like forest), ending turn in this tile adds a single-turn debuff that reduces vision by 1. No yield changes as part of this feature.
Edit: Maritime Battles for VP has an implementation for stormy oceans based on randomly creating and removing them. Some performance and bugginess issues, but maybe a good springboard for implementation.
Proposal 3:
Update Communitu atoll placement logic and add placement logic for stormy oceans. A little TBD, but some initial thinking:
The atoll placements are fairly straightforward: must be coast, must be within a certain south/north latitude band, and must have 3 neighboring ocean tiles. The more features already exist within 3 tiles, the less likely an atoll is to spawn. This logic would need to be modified so that atolls can spawn farther from terrain, either freely in the ocean in micro-chains, or just increase their placement distance from 3 => 5 (e.g.). Ocean tiles would need to flip to coast when applicable (I think). Also, the chance to place may need changes depending on other adjustments.
Stormy oceans would need new functions entirely. Placement logic tbd, but freely floating and using world temperature and rainfall would probably be a good place to start. Maybe logic for clustering them a little bit.
Edit: Features can accidentally create passages over ocean. Placement logic may need to consider this.
Proposal 4:
Give Marsh and Oasis unique defensive qualities to differentiate combat theatres a little bit. Deserts gain pockets of fast-healing, as do jungles and other wet grasslands. In practice, the healing only applies if the unit stops for two+ turns (March units can move immediately but only get bonus healing once).
Edit: If March is changed to be flat healing, this should probably not interact with it. May need to edit tooltip/help tip to reflect this.
Remove the +CS when defending in Marsh and Oasis.
Units ending their turn on Marsh and Oasis tiles are granted Plentiful Provisions for 1 turn.
Add a loading tip that explains "Units ending their turn on Marshes and Oases heal a little more each turn."
New promotion: Plentiful Provisions
This unit heals 5 additional health per turn. Removed after 1 turn.
Proposal 1:
I want to revisit the notion of having Atolls behave as water-hills: +1 terrain height, 15% defense bonus to ships stationed over them, 2 movement cost.
Edit: Great Barrier Reef also has a defense bonus. Consider creating parity with this modifier for consistency purposes.
Proposal 2:
As a companion to changing Atolls, look into adding a "stormy ocean" type of tile. 2 movement cost, blocks line of sight (like forest), ending turn in this tile adds a single-turn debuff that reduces vision by 1. No yield changes as part of this feature.
Edit: Maritime Battles for VP has an implementation for stormy oceans based on randomly creating and removing them. Some performance and bugginess issues, but maybe a good springboard for implementation.
Proposal 3:
Update Communitu atoll placement logic and add placement logic for stormy oceans. A little TBD, but some initial thinking:
The atoll placements are fairly straightforward: must be coast, must be within a certain south/north latitude band, and must have 3 neighboring ocean tiles. The more features already exist within 3 tiles, the less likely an atoll is to spawn. This logic would need to be modified so that atolls can spawn farther from terrain, either freely in the ocean in micro-chains, or just increase their placement distance from 3 => 5 (e.g.). Ocean tiles would need to flip to coast when applicable (I think). Also, the chance to place may need changes depending on other adjustments.
Stormy oceans would need new functions entirely. Placement logic tbd, but freely floating and using world temperature and rainfall would probably be a good place to start. Maybe logic for clustering them a little bit.
Edit: Features can accidentally create passages over ocean. Placement logic may need to consider this.
Proposal 4:
Give Marsh and Oasis unique defensive qualities to differentiate combat theatres a little bit. Deserts gain pockets of fast-healing, as do jungles and other wet grasslands. In practice, the healing only applies if the unit stops for two+ turns (March units can move immediately but only get bonus healing once).
Edit: If March is changed to be flat healing, this should probably not interact with it. May need to edit tooltip/help tip to reflect this.
Remove the +CS when defending in Marsh and Oasis.
Units ending their turn on Marsh and Oasis tiles are granted Plentiful Provisions for 1 turn.
Add a loading tip that explains "Units ending their turn on Marshes and Oases heal a little more each turn."
New promotion: Plentiful Provisions
This unit heals 5 additional health per turn. Removed after 1 turn.
Last edited:
pineappledan
Deity
Currently promotions with AlwaysHeal = '1' give their unit the full value of the heal they would receive while fortified at the end of each turn, regardless of action.
This makes fortifying much less valuable for infantry, and completely useless in the case of Skirmishers, who don't get fortification bonuses. It also incorporates various healing bonuses like friendly/enemy land, medic, etc, so it is highly variable in value. This makes March promotions hard to balance, and better for humans who can escort march units with medics, and know to combine the effects of medic and march on the same unit.
Edit: also air repair is the single most valuable air promotion because it allows air units far more uptime without having to stop to heal. Air units already benefit from being stationed in cities, often with hospitals and military bases that give consistent heal bonuses regardless of action
Proposal: change how March promotions work
Why not change Always Heal from a Boolean on/off effect to an integer value that heals X amount at the end of each turn instead? This would make it work like existing building bonuses like Hospital, which heal units stationed in the city for a defined amount each turn, regardless of action. It would make March more consistent in value, and therefore easier to use and more reliable for the AI. We also wouldn't have to do silly things like add CS % maluses to counterbalance the potential effects.
The heal from AlwaysHeal would stack additively with fortification now, and not interact with healing bonuses like Medic, etc.
Also, this would open up the AlwaysHeal ability to be used as a Damage Over Time (DOT) effect for plague promotions. Just make the healing at the end of each turn negative, and the unit will take damage until the plague expires. Neat! I bet that would be a fun effect to add somewhere.
Specific implementations:
March and Skirmisher March : AlwaysHeal = 5
Heli Repair : AlwaysHeal = 5
Air Repair/Repair : AlwaysHeal = 5
Survivalism 3 : AlwaysHeal = 10
This makes fortifying much less valuable for infantry, and completely useless in the case of Skirmishers, who don't get fortification bonuses. It also incorporates various healing bonuses like friendly/enemy land, medic, etc, so it is highly variable in value. This makes March promotions hard to balance, and better for humans who can escort march units with medics, and know to combine the effects of medic and march on the same unit.
Edit: also air repair is the single most valuable air promotion because it allows air units far more uptime without having to stop to heal. Air units already benefit from being stationed in cities, often with hospitals and military bases that give consistent heal bonuses regardless of action
Proposal: change how March promotions work
Why not change Always Heal from a Boolean on/off effect to an integer value that heals X amount at the end of each turn instead? This would make it work like existing building bonuses like Hospital, which heal units stationed in the city for a defined amount each turn, regardless of action. It would make March more consistent in value, and therefore easier to use and more reliable for the AI. We also wouldn't have to do silly things like add CS % maluses to counterbalance the potential effects.
The heal from AlwaysHeal would stack additively with fortification now, and not interact with healing bonuses like Medic, etc.
Also, this would open up the AlwaysHeal ability to be used as a Damage Over Time (DOT) effect for plague promotions. Just make the healing at the end of each turn negative, and the unit will take damage until the plague expires. Neat! I bet that would be a fun effect to add somewhere.
Specific implementations:
March and Skirmisher March : AlwaysHeal = 5
Heli Repair : AlwaysHeal = 5
Air Repair/Repair : AlwaysHeal = 5
Survivalism 3 : AlwaysHeal = 10
Last edited:
This is a very elegant solution! Nice!
Sadly I think it is time to talk about Zealotry nerfs. I have never not taken this belief as a warmonger and often even take it as a peaceful civ if I have an aggressive neighbor just so they can't take it. Policies/beliefs that are "always take"s reduce the variety and fun of the game.
The ability to convert a third resource (faith) into units is ridiculously powerful. Suddenly you never have to purchase or build a unit ever again, and all that gold and production can go towards wonders and buildings. This is not helped by the fact that:
It's just too good. And that's not even getting into the bonus strategic resources (which are fine). Some (separate, incompatible) ideas:
What are peoples' thoughts?
The ability to convert a third resource (faith) into units is ridiculously powerful. Suddenly you never have to purchase or build a unit ever again, and all that gold and production can go towards wonders and buildings. This is not helped by the fact that:
- Unlike gold, Zealotry units start with full XP,
- IIRC, Zealotry does not require you to have military buildings in the city (e.g. you can faith buy a tank if you don't have even a barracks)
- The only limit to how many units you can faith buy in a city is how much faith you have and how many open tiles there are around the city. So if you have enough faith, you can have a completely undefended city, and once your enemy attacks, just faith buy 7 of your top units.
It's just too good. And that's not even getting into the bonus strategic resources (which are fine). Some (separate, incompatible) ideas:
- Faith purchased units have the same restrictions as gold purchased units -- half XP, requires military building, one per city per turn. I believe this would still be extremely good by allowing you to spend all your gold on other things. But now at least sometimes you would want to build a unit for full XP.
- Faith purchased units have a cool down similar to faith purchased great people but much shorter, maybe one per empire per turn. Much less of a nerf, now you can still never build a unit again, but at least you can't spam units in a city.
- Faith unit purchase costs are raised significantly, maybe 2x. Right now it's really easy as a wide civ to get to the point where your faith makes faith purchasing units trivial.
- Faith unit purchase costs rise for that specific unit with each purchase just like great people faith purchased. Now instead of buying my supply cap in knights, I can buy a few knights before I have to move on to longswordsmen, then crossbows, etc, until I research the next military technologies and unlock a new unit to faith buy. I am personally a fan of this one.
What are peoples' thoughts?
Last edited:
Anarcomu
King
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2022
- Messages
- 640
Thoughts : Zealotry is, indeed, very strong. You end up not spreading your faith thought, which is a non-factor if you don't care about spreading outside anyway.
Limiting to one faith purchase per city (shared with gold purchase) and making it building-dependent seems a no-brainer to me.
If possible, maybe add the Temple as an additional prerequisite for post-classical units as well (and a shrine for pre-medieval)
Concerning the half XP... It might be necessary but I really like that power...
Limiting to one faith purchase per city (shared with gold purchase) and making it building-dependent seems a no-brainer to me.
If possible, maybe add the Temple as an additional prerequisite for post-classical units as well (and a shrine for pre-medieval)
Concerning the half XP... It might be necessary but I really like that power...
I don't take this belief as a warmonger. If I'm playing warmonger, I don't let my units die anyway, and I already have all the units I need by the time of enhancing. Vassals will keep supplying the land units I will need in the coming eras.
And then later on (around late Renaissance) when ships are needed, I would've completed all my buildings and have all the production to fill the supply cap. Suddenly Zealotry just means trading faith for "25% of your production is converted into whatever yields you like" (aka processes), but faith is better spent on great people.
And then later on (around late Renaissance) when ships are needed, I would've completed all my buildings and have all the production to fill the supply cap. Suddenly Zealotry just means trading faith for "25% of your production is converted into whatever yields you like" (aka processes), but faith is better spent on great people.
Is Zealotry so "strong" that the AI never picks it at all? (this is from Verns 650 AI games without 4UC)
In that case I doubt a nerf is really necessary.
pineappledan
Deity
something has gone wrong in that analysis. None of those listed beliefs are enhancers
