I might not agree with the numbers presented here, but the concept is sound, I see no downside to having that flexibility.
Vox Populi Congress Proposal Workshop
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sth is wrong then? iirc its the same thing in the new VP/4UC comparison files.
Thats what I thought, I just wanted to know how they do...
Tekamthi
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I second this... But let's not stop there -- consider adding the ocean natural wonders from the more wonders modmod. They're excellent, and do a good job of adding some interesting features into the monotonous water tiles
I've played around with adding a "shoal" feature -- the stone resource art looks pretty good in ocean for this purpose. Ultimately removed it from my modmod as I have not really worked out what makes it different from atoll, functionality-wise.
Not such a challenge; see latest version of maritime battles+ modmod. This remains a relatively heavy mod for general play, and I will do another overhaul this summer to try to squeeze out some more inefficiencies from my implementation. The art I have is yet imperfect, but probably about 90% there. If you don't scrutinize the visuals too closely, it's very adequate imo. I need to improve my blender skills to fix it up the rest of the way (or @ghost toast might do it for me), but it should be achievable.
My mb+ implementation makes these work as temporary "features" (have to use improvement system to make the art change dynamically, it's a little hacky from db perspective, but fairly seamless from player perspective). Next version will be doing a procedural system for their appearance and movement.
There's one big caveat to any ocean features however -- any new features in ocean makes them always accessible to embarked units (mountains too for that matter). I've reported it on git but so far an unsolved mystery. Would have to limit any water features to coast only til fixed.
See my "recon pay" modmod series. One of the modules there does this for recon only in oasis. It's good gameplay imo... Not sure I want it on every unit but for recon it works
In any case, some good thoughts here, I'd be in favour of many of these terrain feature proposals, with some additional refinements maybe. Til then we have some modmods already available to experiment with these concepts
yes, this is good. I've always thought this is how atolls should be
as for currently, I believe the only water tile with a combat bonus is barrier reef
not sure if your question is whether ships currently benefit or should benefit. if it's the latter, I think they most definitely should. 99% of water combat is ships, so if ships don't benefit there's no point
Zealotry has a lot going for it.
It comes out at point where you probably have a lot of faith generation but not much to do with it, the race is over. It gives you a big faith sink and you can paly very aggressively when your units have less value. Just throw them into the AI and make more hen they die.
It is also scales really well. We have a similar issue with old orders where the other religion stuff gets worse as time passes but you can faith buy six landships if you want, if anything it gets stronger as time passes as units get very expensive.
So possibly suggestions:
Remove the % strat per city, there is no need for this on top of the main ability.
Have more limits on what units can be bought, either in terms of era or just melee for example.
have lowered exp as they are bough, same as other bought units.
It comes out at point where you probably have a lot of faith generation but not much to do with it, the race is over. It gives you a big faith sink and you can paly very aggressively when your units have less value. Just throw them into the AI and make more hen they die.
It is also scales really well. We have a similar issue with old orders where the other religion stuff gets worse as time passes but you can faith buy six landships if you want, if anything it gets stronger as time passes as units get very expensive.
So possibly suggestions:
Remove the % strat per city, there is no need for this on top of the main ability.
Have more limits on what units can be bought, either in terms of era or just melee for example.
have lowered exp as they are bough, same as other bought units.
I'm not sure this contributes to zealotry's power in any real tangible way, but its also just a weird space to have this that removes it from a potentially better source. I would be 100% good with its removal.
pineappledan
Deity
Where else would you put it? It’s a scaling bonus from spread; an enhancer is the perfect place for it.
I like the idea of adding a turn cooldown. I’m less enthusiastic about adding an XP penalty. I don’t know why you would pick the belief if it had no benefits over gold purchases. We can also modify faith costs with far more granularity now that they don’t scale; we were never going to get the faith costs perfect on the first try.
I like the idea of adding a turn cooldown. I’m less enthusiastic about adding an XP penalty. I don’t know why you would pick the belief if it had no benefits over gold purchases. We can also modify faith costs with far more granularity now that they don’t scale; we were never going to get the faith costs perfect on the first try.
I meant more the "gain more strategic resources". obviously you would change the mechanical way its obtained if you moved it.
I think I forgot that Barrier Reef already has defense bonus. My question was the former, so without that as an issue it should be an easy change to vote on.
I don't know about the technical differences between new terrains versus new features, but I wouldn't be opposed to shoals just being a simple 1
, 1 
terrain (rather than a feature at all).So Grasslands : Plains :: Coast : Shoal.
If shoals aren't a feature then you can still spawn resources over them (I assume), which would add some variety to fishing boats. To further differentiate shoals from atolls I'd probably skip the height change as well, leaving them with just the move cost penalty and defensive modifier.
I understand the desire for storms to be dynamic and mobile but I don't think it's necessary from a gameplay perspective. If it makes the implementation easier and less hacky, I'd be strongly in favor of just treating it like any other feature and representing a static location that's stormy more often than not compared to the rest of the ocean.
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Rekk
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There's nothing stopping resources from appearing on features. See literally any resource.
Shoals should have a defense penalty, due to the severely reduce mobility while inside it, and no sight blocking. That would make them sufficiently different than atolls.
Also, the main point about atolls is that they only spawn in specific areas (because those the conditions required for them to form), while shoals can be in more varied areas.
Shoals should have a defense penalty, due to the severely reduce mobility while inside it, and no sight blocking. That would make them sufficiently different than atolls.
Also, the main point about atolls is that they only spawn in specific areas (because those the conditions required for them to form), while shoals can be in more varied areas.
For the same reason defense penalties were removed from Marsh and Oasis, I feel like we wouldn't want to add defense penalties to shoals, even if it makes more sense geographically. Could be put to a vote though and the community could decide. The main goal is introducing strategic variety to the map.
Tekamthi
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A few notes re last few ocean posts:
Adding terrain is not so easy, in fact I think we can only swap existing terrains but not add more; the art in particular I believe is hard-coded to some extent? Could be wrong on the details but I think we'd never find sponsor for this.
Adding features is very easy. Any added features are permanent as far as their art goes (only reloading a game updates them -- forests and marshes the exception, but their properties cannot be copied to new features). Can also have features and resources combined, as was noted. Features is the way to go, and stone resource art hooked up to feature database entry works great. 100% viable proposal.
For storms, for main branch vp we want art to be A grade if not A+. I have a design in mind that should be achievable, and that my current mb+ is part way towards; essentially I need someone with blender knowledge to copy and move around a few invisible points on a 3d model that has no other structure, just these tiny triangles that the game uses to spawn in effects. I know what needs to be done, but I don't have the blender knowledge to do it (yet). I think once executed we'd have a storm art solidly in the A category. The way the effects work, A+ will not be achievable no matter how good the blender work is, but I think we might at least get a viable proposal candidate out of it. Blender knowledge in our modding community is extremely rare these days, however... (@ghost toast has pretty much made every 3d art we've seen added in past couple years now, just about). Might be ready by the time next Congress rolls around; anyone that wants to learn blender can make sure it is, it's probably relatively easy blender task
Adding terrain is not so easy, in fact I think we can only swap existing terrains but not add more; the art in particular I believe is hard-coded to some extent? Could be wrong on the details but I think we'd never find sponsor for this.
Adding features is very easy. Any added features are permanent as far as their art goes (only reloading a game updates them -- forests and marshes the exception, but their properties cannot be copied to new features). Can also have features and resources combined, as was noted. Features is the way to go, and stone resource art hooked up to feature database entry works great. 100% viable proposal.
For storms, for main branch vp we want art to be A grade if not A+. I have a design in mind that should be achievable, and that my current mb+ is part way towards; essentially I need someone with blender knowledge to copy and move around a few invisible points on a 3d model that has no other structure, just these tiny triangles that the game uses to spawn in effects. I know what needs to be done, but I don't have the blender knowledge to do it (yet). I think once executed we'd have a storm art solidly in the A category. The way the effects work, A+ will not be achievable no matter how good the blender work is, but I think we might at least get a viable proposal candidate out of it. Blender knowledge in our modding community is extremely rare these days, however... (@ghost toast has pretty much made every 3d art we've seen added in past couple years now, just about). Might be ready by the time next Congress rolls around; anyone that wants to learn blender can make sure it is, it's probably relatively easy blender task
pineappledan
Deity
I think the culprit is actually the Fealty opener. -25% Faith cost reduction is functionally +33% Faith on empire. On an opener. Gold doesn’t get a discount like that until much, much later. it’s very easy and very worthwhile to divert to this 1 policy without going down the rest of the tree.
I think if that were removed, or moved to a later policy/etc, that would control a lot of Zealotry’s power. It would also mean we wouldn’t have to balance Zealotry’s power for two widely divergent price points.
