Wainy's (Cultural!) Deity LP - Persia

[Barth]

So when I do get around to revisiting the cultural victory (using the shiny new strategies from this thread, of course!) what civ should I try? Should I go for a Per2ia, like Bab2lon? Or should I try someone new?

Persia got a full game. Bring on someone new .

 

[w a i n y]

How about Korea? Science+Culture
India might be another good one.

EDIT: Just thought of something. how about a Song2ai? but this time, go for a cultural victory achieved by lots of warmongering and puppets.

Sounds good, and I'll likely do it eventually, but I'd like to show a good peaceful cultural strat first.

 

[omgsrsly]

i had a pretty successful cultural victory as egypt (also going 'wide') while taking both rationalism and piety. kinda wanted to make a vid series of my own but i dont have the software and the game was like a 1/4 over before i really thought about it

 

[ShahJahanII]

i had a pretty successful cultural victory as egypt (also going 'wide') while taking both rationalism and piety. kinda wanted to make a vid series of my own but i dont have the software and the game was like a 1/4 over before i really thought about it

I thought you couldnt have Rationalism And Piety?

 

[tommynt]

i had a pretty successful cultural victory as egypt (also going 'wide') while taking both rationalism and piety. kinda wanted to make a vid series of my own but i dont have the software and the game was like a 1/4 over before i really thought about it

finished GOTm in 234 turns (standard speed), whoever does a cult game faster got a good clue and I d really like see how others play it.

 

[ShahJahanII]

Sounds good, and I'll likely do it eventually, but I'd like to show a good peaceful cultural strat first.

Fair enough .
I DID try this strategy yesterday on Prince, it worked pretty well.
A Domination on King is something I can handle, but happiness gets really hard to control when you have about 10 puppets, where I could have annexed them and bought a courthouse on a Domination game.
The current GOTM is rather "cooked" with Aztecs on a Lakes map.
Perhaps you could do something similar?
France seems like a really obvious one.
I might also suggest Siam, but its kinda hard to get enough gold and city-states on Diety, especially when you have to make so many research agreements.

 

[w a i n y]

I thought you couldnt have Rationalism And Piety?

You fill out one, then the other. There's a turn of anarchy in between, and the tree you filled out gets invalidated, but you get the crazy science bonuses from rationalism and, later, the free policy and cultural bonuses from piety. Obviously they both count towards the 5 trees you need.

finished GOTm in 234 turns (standard speed), whoever does a cult game faster got a good clue and I d really like see how others play it.

That's quite a good time. Was this the Aztecs one? I didn't think their conquest ability was that good, to be honest.

 

[omgsrsly]

if you play with raging barbarians (which i like to do generally) than you can get a couple of quick early piety policies with the aztecs. the extra two fast policies really help finish piety quickly which in turn really snowballs things. even on standard setting you should be able to get one 'early' policy

 

[tommynt]

That's quite a good time. Was this the Aztecs one? I didn't think their conquest ability was that good, to be honest.

I truly never understand this "the civ can do this or the civ can do that", every civ can upgrade warris to swords and swords to longswords.
Their kill bonus and floating gardens are both nice bonuses, but well in the overall picture both make maybe 3-5 turns difference in winning compared to a "vanilla civ".

In end floating gardens and a size 29 cap had been "fun"

Persia is one of civs I d call really top tier for every winnign aspect btw - I m pretty sure u can stay in an all time GA after the 1. one. But even Persia d not make more then 5-10 turn difference - I think - other civs can stay nearly all time GA aswell - oh well 3 move swords sounds really nice

 

[w a i n y]

I truly never understand this "the civ can do this or the civ can do that", every civ can upgrade warris to swords and swords to longswords.
Their kill bonus and floating gardens are both nice bonuses, but well in the overall picture both make maybe 3-5 turns difference in winning compared to a "vanilla civ".

In end floating gardens and a size 29 cap had been "fun"

Persia is one of civs I d call really top tier for every winnign aspect btw - I m pretty sure u can stay in an all time GA after the 1. one. But even Persia d not make more then 5-10 turn difference - I think - other civs can stay nearly all time GA aswell - oh well 3 move swords sounds really nice

What I meant is, I didn't think their ability to generate culture from kills was that good, as you've agreed. Do you think you'd have been able to pull off a turn-230 victory with an entirely peaceful game? What's your preferred strategy for a warmongering culture game? I'm assuming Oracle -> Liberty GS for steel, then a quick Hagia for the Porcelain tower?

Also, you can get an infinite golden age as Persia, but that means spending great people and beelining wonders you might otherwise skip, like Chichen Itza or the Taj. Isn't it better to focus more on great artists and Acoustics/Archaeology?

 

[omgsrsly]

well both those wonders are pretty good in cultural games tbh although getting chn itza is a real pain ime

GAs arent that great in warmongering cultural games tbh since its quantity over quality. sistine chapel is a more important wonder to quick build than the porcelain tower since you can generate a lot of GSs in your cap if you focus on it

also imo aztecs special abilites work really in the scenario your describing because you can finish liberty v quickly.

 

[tommynt]

I very unusually beeline steel if I want go for fast win times (non dom), for a cult game I ll do some very usual wonder buildup - henge (settlers) - oracle -Hagia (either off them in 2nd city) .. and keep doing top tree (well I really like getting Ironworks up aswell) getting workshops before doing all the other building stuff really save lot hammers in medium run - and ALLWAYS get a engi from both hagia and lib - getting wonders up straight is just so powerful

in fact I dont have a general strat - whats just very important is getting up all cities u want very soon so they can grow and establish themself fast.

Swords together with a gg will be enough to kill 2 civs (well at least weak ones) - civs like france often got strength 20 cities soon - they ll be hard/impossible

 

[tommynt]

Isn't it better to focus more on great artists and Acoustics/Archaeology?

I think I wrtoe somewhere else - GA spawn like "mad" from themself once u have got Museums in 4 cities and 16 specielaists. But u have to buiuld up your civ BEFORE (big cities and buildings as the specialists ll hurt production.
Focus before on growing, buildings and possible getting a scientist and a engi from cap (1 or 2 scientist (the pt one can be used for archeology) just hurts median a bit ..

 

[tommynt]

well both those wonders are pretty good in cultural games tbh although getting chn itza is a real pain ime

I think CI is the wonder I often miss pretty often but with 2 GAs from sp, and 2-3 from GG thats about 60 turn GA allready - I ll very unusually use another great dude for GA (endgame only)

 

[w a i n y]

getting workshops before doing all the other building stuff really save lot hammers in medium run

in fact I dont have a general strat - whats just very important is getting up all cities u want very soon so they can grow and establish themself fast.

I like this philosophy.

I think I wrtoe somewhere else - GA spawn like "mad" from themself once u have got Museums in 4 cities and 16 specielaists. But u have to buiuld up your civ BEFORE (big cities and buildings as the specialists ll hurt production.

Okay, I see what you mean. Though stagnating your cities after mid-game and before Utopia doesn't really affect things much - much of your science will come from RAs anyway.

Focus before on growing, buildings and possible getting a scientist and a engi from cap (1 or 2 scientist (the pt one can be used for archeology) just hurts median a bit ..

What median? And why is getting a couple of engineers and scientists preferable? You can beeline the important wonders and use RAs to do the job of scientists (rather than spending gold on cultural CS).

I think CI is the wonder I often miss pretty often but with 2 GAs from sp, and 2-3 from GG thats about 60 turn GA allready - I ll very unusually use another great dude for GA (endgame only)

This is where I lose you. Sure, if you warmonger aggressively you can get a few GGs, but how do you do this while simultaneously going for Stonehenge, the Oracle, the Hagia Sophia and the Porcelain Tower and getting your workshops up and RAs going? Are you talking about the same type of game here?

Swords together with a gg will be enough to kill 2 civs (well at least weak ones) - civs like france often got strength 20 cities soon - they ll be hard/impossible

Oh wow. I was just about to say this was impossible - then I saw Tabarnak's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=445082). He skipped writing and still got Longswords by turn 95, and took out several civs by then. Obviously this is not the norm, but still - wow! Still, though, how can you get to Philo for the Oracle (which I presume you'll agree is a must for any cultural game) and still get to swords fast enough to take out even a single civ? And where do you get the GG? Early honour?

 

[tommynt]

This is where I lose you. Sure, if you warmonger aggressively you can get a few GGs, but how do you do this while simultaneously going for Stonehenge, the Oracle, the Hagia Sophia and the Porcelain Tower and getting your workshops up and RAs going? Are you talking about the same type of game here?

well your are right - this seems hard for deity, this was more like an overall statement for cult games. In other difficulties its not a real problem.

Point is I usually milk ais (trade lux - dow ...) early on. You can do that only once or twice if you plan on doing RAs later on, or you will never get back into good standings again (whats a pain in ass as future deals also generate less money).

But this money can be used for the fast start - upgrade warris to swords - possibly buy even a settler to speed things and so on and most important get CS - few bought warris spread accros map just give bigger chance to bring workers back and fullfill barb missions and generate military points while fighting. Also Dowing neightbour on purpose early on helps generate GG. And well sometimes you even get enough gold to hard buy CS.

Your are very right I am no magician, no1 can spam wonders, cities and military just like that, but its called deity so I use every chance AI gives me - well you can call that cheesy but I am used to take my chances. Playing multiplayer makes you do it, and well even in RL one should take what he can get (if it fits into his/her moral philosohy - in RL I am way more concerned about moral as in games obviously).

 

[w a i n y]

Even with trade-breaking DoWs, I still think it's rather hard to pull off consistently (which has been one of the objections people have made to my Great Library strategy). Also, I think I've established fairly conclusively, from my own failures in the Persia series, that gifting cultural CS is not optimal for culture games. I could maybe see maritimes but I feel saving up for a full round of RAs (assuming pangaea or archipelago) should still be better.

 

[tommynt]

well all the CS system is very luck based, I had games were shortly after buying of some CS - 2 of em wanted have oracle and a very nearby rouad then another one wanted a GG and so on.
BUT
I think u have to go for it, if you dont spend the 500 gold at some point (or get lucky with barb missions) they will soon just want each other dead and well - no more missions from them all game.

So I WILL allways try to get as many as possible at around turn 50-60 (after the kill each other missions start) - if you get lucky missions afterwards it definatly pays off.
And well in fact all 3 types of CS are useful - 1 or 2 marritime are really nice - apart that I d look for diferent lux and espacially them being friendly or at least neutral

 

[w a i n y]

well all the CS system is very luck based, I had games were shortly after buying of some CS - 2 of em wanted have oracle and a very nearby rouad then another one wanted a GG and so on.
BUT
I think u have to go for it, if you dont spend the 500 gold at some point (or get lucky with barb missions) they will soon just want each other dead and well - no more missions from them all game.

So I WILL allways try to get as many as possible at around turn 50-60 (after the kill each other missions start) - if you get lucky missions afterwards it definatly pays off.
And well in fact all 3 types of CS are useful - 1 or 2 marritime are really nice - apart that I d look for diferent lux and espacially them being friendly or at least neutral

Yes, they're useful, but for cultural games wouldn't it be better to get more RAs to clear acoustics, and ultimately to reach the industrial era faster?

 

[tommynt]

Ras are only useful if they wont be brokken ...

I think starting them at around turn 80-90 or so - well at least when u r sure to have at least PT up at end is soon enough.

At least I wait till connections are a bit "established" - If there are only psoycho civs on your planet ....

But that really depends on playstyles I think