War Chariot vs Knight

[Valkrionn]

I think we have a fundamental disagreement about what's 'cool' here. I dislike chariots as they exist in FfH... They have interesting mechanic, they exist just to break stacks. Too many high end units are like that. I think a transport would be an interesting mechanic for them, and as a plus it's more in line with the actual historical use.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

The debate at this point appears to be whether or not a more realistic mounted line would be cool or not.


Probably not worth continuing that particular debate...as the person who is going to be doing this little module, I am firmly in the "realism = cool" camp.

If you think chariots should be the most powerful mounted unit, despite all of their well-understood limitations, because a magic chariot made out of adamantium drawn by dragons and carrying 3 Darth Vaders would pwnzor everyone...my little module is not for you. It won't be for you. You will never like it.

Chariots were just something we humans made due with until something better came along. They can still have a use in the game...but in my opinion that use should mirror what we know about how chariots actually work.

 

[WarKirby]

But... realism is just pointles... flavour should alvays take first place.
Not mentioning that if we want realism, we should dispense with the mages, vampires and the like.

You need to learn about the concept of Immersion Relevant Realism


Mages are alright, because their powercomes from gods, and mana nodes. It would NOT be alright for Warriors to be able to throw nuclear missiles, because that makes no sense. But the argument you're making here is "a, therefore b". You just can't do that.

A chariot is pulled by multiple horses, which are quite likely to get their legs tangled up, and interfere with each other. It's also essentially the earliest form of a car, in a time where spring suspension was not yet invented. Resulting in a very bumpy ride and making chariot archery extremely difficult.

Moreover, a chariot is larger, and less manouevrable than a man on horseback. And also slower. Ever seen the back end of a bus swaying when it turns a corner? chariots are like that. Turn too tightly, it spins out of control and tips over, probably killing the riders. A single man on horseback can turn much tighter arcs, and run rings around a chariot.

Horses are faster, because a chariot is being pulled by them. In the case of a chariot, it's two horses pulling a heavy chariot with two men on it. with a horseman, it's one man, on a horse. Guess which case puts less strain on the horse? The speed of a chariot is also naturally limited by it's contstruction. go too fast and the thing will flall apart from friction. Hell, even just hit a jutting out stone in the ground and very bad things could occur.

Being larger too, comes with a lot of problems. Try manouvreing a chariot through a forest, or a marsh. A man on horseback can do it much more capably and at a faster pace.

moreover, with the invention of stirrups, a horse rider could hold on with his legs, freeing his hands up to swing a sword, or fire arrows. When you're in a rickety chariot, you need to keep one hand on the reins at all times, lest you fall out.

Chariots were used to great effect by the egyptians, certainly. And that was three thousand years ago., More recently, armoured knights on horseback were in use all over europe in the last millenia. Why do you think they didn't use chariots?

 

[Quetz]

There's a distinct possibility that it will end up in FFPlus. Mostly because I prefer realism over "It's always been this way" or "It's spikey! Gotta be better".

Yay! Sorry PPQ, but you are the only one defending the somewhat-ridiculous current chariot, though you are very vocal about it.

 

[Quetz]

FF has already increased ship capacity, and made several fixes. It's only now that I'm seeing ANY landings at all.... never saw them in FfH.

Following that logic, would it stand to reason that increasing them more would yeild still better AI performance?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Following that logic, would it stand to reason that increasing them more would yeild still better AI performance?

Sure, but it also would yield better human naval performance as well. The AI couldn't understand standard galleys with FfH capacity in principle. With a capacity of 2, I've seen Hannah land troops on my shores with a Galley.

Besides, I thought that the naval units have too low capacity even for a human player and that increasing it by 2 or, in some cases, 1, would be more fun.

Yes. My point is that the AI will use a low-power mounted unit.

But it won't use all features of it. I think that all features should be added only if the AI has some rudimentary understanding of them.

Having said that, Chariots which are more powerful then Knights are strange, to say the least.

 

[Tarquelne]

Mostly I'd like to see chariots disappear... at least from the mid/late-game.

But a couple of ideas I've liked:

Chariots are Mounted units with similar stats to non-chariot Mounted units, but lack the special abilities of those units like Flanking or Collateral damage. That, of course, assumes the other Mounted units get those abilities. (A variant: Chariots are good in open terrain but have harsh penalties for closed.)

Chariots are the land-based equivalent of the Arcane Barge: They're rather large and carry a mage or two plus their equipment. No cargo mechanic - just some spells. Probably primarily useful for civs without much investment in mages. - Basically an Arcane unit for Mounted-tech civs.

A variant: The chariot is a combat unit, but heavily augmented by magic. (The chariot carries a mage into combat who maintains/casts the spells boosting the chariot's performance.) - Basically a Mounted unit for Arcane-tech civs.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Mostly I'd like to see chariots disappear... at least from the mid/late-game.

But a couple of ideas I've liked:

Chariots are Mounted units with similar stats to non-chariot Mounted units, but lack the special abilities of those units like Flanking or Collateral damage. That, of course, assumes the other Mounted units get those abilities. (A variant: Chariots are good in open terrain but have harsh penalties for closed.)

Chariots are the land-based equivalent of the Arcane Barge: They're rather large and carry a mage or two plus their equipment. No cargo mechanic - just some spells. Probably primarily useful for civs without much investment in mages. - Basically an Arcane unit for Mounted-tech civs.

A variant: The chariot is a combat unit, but heavily augmented by magic. (The chariot carries a mage into combat who maintains/casts the spells boosting the chariot's performance.) - Basically a Mounted unit for Arcane-tech civs.

That is an interesting take...

I was thinking of giving some of the late mounted units for Arcane civs a more magical feel...a Sheaim mage on a manticore would be interesting as a knight UU, for example.

I do like the cargo space idea though, simply because it allows heroes/mages to ride to battle in a chariot. That has some mythic resonance.

As I picture it chariots should mostly go away when mounted units start to appear...the only reason to keep a few around will be to haul wounded troops away from battle, move up reinforcements, and haul siege units and such. They'll be carts, essentially. Heck, I might even have the last upgrade for chariot be a 4-wheeled cart with 2 cargo spaces.

 

[Quetz]

Speaking of flanking, is it in FFH/FF? Don't seem recall ever noticing it.

And it would help vs these pesky organ guns quite a bit ^ ^

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Module is ready to try


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8127642