Were the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified?

[William528]

correct me if i'm wrong, but in the Nanking 1936(?) the Japs killed about 300,000 civilians. Instead of arguing about it's morallity, the next day's papers had the headline:
Cpt. ***** wins the killing competition with 117 kills[\B]

But it was the soldiers, not the Jap civilians who did it so......

 

[kingbill555]

The problem lied in the fact that America would accept nothing but UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER. The Japanese were too proud for that however. They would probably have accepted something less extreme.

Was it necessary for America to completely humiliate the Japanese with an unconditional surrender?

FYI, after the dropping of the second atomic bomb the Japanese surrendered but not unconditionally(the emperor got to stay on his throne) and the americans accepted this. ( their consciences probably finally caught up with them)

 

[gael]

They were not justified any sane way of thinking, although they did end the world of a terrible war, ( at the expence of thousands of innocent lives).
As far as justifing it? It probably opened the worlds eyes as to how deadly the next big one would be.

 

[William528]

I agree with gael, it's like blackmailing the USSR.
"That's what will happen to Moscow if you get on the wrong side of us!"

 

[TNG]

It's just not right, it affected many people then and now

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by kingbill555
The problem lied in the fact that America would accept nothing but UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER. The Japanese were too proud for that however. They would probably have accepted something less extreme.

Was it necessary for America to completely humiliate the Japanese with an unconditional surrender?

Yes, it was!

First, Japan as a nation had it coming. It deserved everything it got. Do you have a problem with Germany being forced to surrender unconditionally? Same guys, same guys. No one I know has a big issue with not negotiating with "Nazi Pride," so why be so kind to Imperial Japan?

And, on a practical level, anything short of unconditional would have meant that the Japanese would - as they had planned to - use the opportunity to negotiate, bartering with prisoners in exchange for conquered territory, etc..

FYI, after the dropping of the second atomic bomb the Japanese surrendered but not unconditionally(the emperor got to stay on his throne) and the americans accepted this. ( their consciences probably finally caught up with them)

No, that's NOT "for your information," because it is wrong. Japan surrendered unconditionally by accepting the terms of the Potsdam declaration, an Allied declaration that provided for the unconditional surrender of Japan but clarified that accepting that declaration would not mean the destruction of Japan, her people, or her traditional system of government (including rule by the emporer), unless Japan chose to change that system democratically. In other words, the Japanese surrendered unconditionally with the knowledge that this didn't mean certain things would happen.

Not incidentally, the SAME EXPLANATION of the meaning of unconditional surrender was offered before the atomic bombs were dropped, issued both by high-level officials and by radio. That offer was officially denounced by Japan the next day.

As far as consciences are concerned, the U.S. conscience as the defenders in a total war of aggression launched against them and their allies while the US tried to peacefully resolve differences is pretty clean.

R.III

 

[TNG]

They could have just not been so extreme, at least not use a nuke.

 

[TNG]

Because the other bombs don't give off an after affect.

 

[kingbill555]

Richard, you are wrong. For months before the bombings, the Japanese offered to surrender on the sole condition that their emperor would stay on the throne. This was rejected by the Americans but accepted after the bombings(like I said, their consciences caught up with them).

If you don't believe me go here

http://www.sasked.gov.sk.ca/curr_content/history20/unit3/sec2_11.html

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by TNG
Because the other bombs don't give off an after affect.

The bombs dropped had little such effect on Japan.

 

[TNG]

You call extreme exposure to radiation of little affect?!

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by kingbill555
Richard, you are wrong. For months before the bombings, the Japanese offered to surrender on the sole condition that their emperor would stay on the throne. This was rejected by the Americans but accepted after the bombings(like I said, their consciences caught up with them).

If you don't believe me go here

http://www.sasked.gov.sk.ca/curr_content/history20/unit3/sec2_11.html

I'm affraid sir, you are SERIOUSLY mis-informed, all the web sites in the world will not change this, I could list HUNDREDS of books that tell the true story, some UNINFLUENTIAL members of Japan's royal family tried to start NEGOTIATIONS with Soviet Russia, AT NO TIME was Japan's CONTROLLING government willing to surender, UNTILL HIROHITO ordered it PERSONALLY.

Even then, some officers tried to stage a coup and destyroy the Emperor's recording of the surrender, and Hirohito only summoned up the courage to order surrender AFTER Hiroshima, but the United States had no way of knowing that.

Without the two abomb strikes, Hirohito would NOT break with 2,000 year old tradition, he would have stood in his bunker and let the Army fight to the last man, and MILLIONS of Japanese would have died.

I suggest you do some SERIOUS reading on this subject BEFORE you put forth half-baked opinions and half-truths and spew morality that doesn't apply to the scond world war.

If you knew ANYTHING about the Japanese character, you would understand how foolish your assertion is.

I'm not trying to insult you personally here sir, so please do not take it that way, but your COMPLETELY WRONG.

Completely.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by TNG
You call extreme exposure to radiation of little affect?!

Your argument makes no sense, even Oppenheimer and his team DID NOT understand the long term effects of the weapon they built.

To surmise the US did is lunacy.

 

[kingbill555]

AoA, for you to assume that all Japanese would follow the Bushido warrior code even if it meant nuclear holocaust being unleashed on their friends and families is a sign of your idiocy.

For every bull**** source you come up with, I can cite a legitimate one that tells the TRUTH.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Tried being nice, but to call the moderator an idiot means we will see you in a week, and I seriously sugest you learn some manors between now and then.

You don't know what your talking about.

And to further add to your ignorence, your arguing with someone who holds a master degree in history.

 

[TNG]

what happened is happened.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by kingbill555
Richard, you are wrong. For months before the bombings, the Japanese offered to surrender on the sole condition that their emperor would stay on the throne. This was rejected by the Americans but accepted after the bombings(like I said, their consciences caught up with them).

If you don't believe me go here
http://www.sasked.gov.sk.ca/curr_content/history20/unit3/sec2_11.html

False. The history of it is as AoA states its above, including the planned coup by the army to prevent the post bombing surrender. The Japanese made no official or serious unofficial ovatures at a surrender before the bombings. You link page metion ZERO pre bombing neotiations, it covers only the Aug 9, 1945 imperial council meeting, after the bombings.

Had I been making decisions, I would not have allowed the use of the fission bombs on cities, regardless of military or indutrial facilities as the offical main target. (2nd army HQ at Hiroshima, indutrial facilities at Kita-Kyushu {primary target for the bomb diverted to Nagasaki) or Nagaski) Use of WMD or mass area convential bombardment is not acceptable to me. In population centers, I would have allowed only the more accurate (whatever is available at the time, which would still means much collaterral damge with ww2 tech) means of target bombing on the appropriate facilities.

 

[TNG]

If the US would have just researched the after affects of the bomb a bit more I'm sure they would have found a way to get Japan to surrender without the cost of thousands of lives.

 

[Richard III]

I've been doing some checking on this overnight out of rage. I will agree that I am in error on one point; the language in the Potsdam Declaration itself was unclear. However, US messages sent through various channels on the same day as the declaration and on following days, as authorized by intelligence services and the president, DID make the meaning of Potsdam clear: surrender unconditionally, and we will not try the Emporer, or remove him.

One reason I am so passionate about this is precisely because of AoA's point: there are a million self-serving websites out there that pitch a particular dovish case on this issue rather than working with up-to-date facts and recently released archival data.

As for the Bushido thing:

1. The attempted coup HAPPENED.

2. EVEN AFTER THE SECOND BOMB, the Japanese cabinet was evenly split on continued resistance. That's why Hirohito was brought in in the first place - because the cabinet was split, and the issue was considered urgent enough that it was felt that Hirohito could break the tie - an unprecedented move. In other words, if one guy had voted differently - as several had in the weeks prior to the bombings - then Hirohito would never have been consulted, and a third, fourth, fifth or sixth bomb might have been necessary.

3. Japan still had over half a million men under arms in mainland Asia, and was increasing the strength of its defences DESPITE allied bombing. Resistance continued on all fronts after the A-bombing. Japan was still launching OFFENSIVES in southern China throughout 1945.

Spend some time. Look into it. Instead of dismissing AoA's talk of bushido as some sort of prejudice, take an educated look at the nature of Japanese resistance in the Pacific theatre - their units simply did not surrender as a matter of course.

Do you want sources? I will happily provide them, but I'm not going to bother wasting my time paging through them if you're not going to be open-minded. I used to agree with your position, kingbill, but then I starting reading much more than what my teachers had told me...

R.III

 

[Richard III]

As you can see, the Empire of Japan surrendered unconditionally. As they should have. As they should have been expected to. As noted, and as explained in the follow-up to Potsdam, this was to be treated as the surrender of the Japanese ability to make war, not the unconditional surrender of the Japanese people in the sense that their right to self-determination would be preserved.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instrument of Surrender of Japan (verbatim):

"We, acting by command of and on behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China, and Great Britain 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.

"We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender (my emphasis) to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese Armed Forces and all Armed Forces under Japanese control wherever situated.

"We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property, and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction.

"We hereby command the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to issue at once orders to the commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender unconditionally themselves and all forces under their control.

"We hereby command all civil, military, and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, orders, and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to effectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority; and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority.

"We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government, and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that declaration.

"We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all Allied Prisoners of War and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance, and immediate transportation to places as directed.

"The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the State shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers, who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender ". (my emphasis)

Immediately upon the signing of the surrender articles, the Supreme Commander ordered that the following proclamation be issued by Emperor Hirohito:

"Accepting the terms set forth in the declaration by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China on July 26, 1945, at Potsdam and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, I have commanded the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to sign on my behalf the Instrument of Surrender presented by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers and to issue General Orders to the military and naval forces in accordance with the direction of the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers. I command all my people forthwith to cease hostilities, to lay down their arms, and faithfully to carry out all provisions of the Instrument of Surrender and the General Orders issued by the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters hereunder."

Funny, seems pretty unconditional to me. Or - wait - could it have been that they were simply acting on the understanding transmitted before Hiroshima and Nagaskaki that unconditional surrender did not mean certain things?

R.III