What civilizations do you miss in BTS?

[picnicboy]

Sweden - No offense intended to Swedes, but apart from being involved in a few wars in the 16 - 17th Century, Sweden has been all but silent in World Affairs. Besides, aren't the Vikings already on the game?

"All but silent", you're making us sound noisy, though I don't think that's what you were intending to do
And I don't agree on Sweden being silent in World Affairs since the 18th century, rather on the contrary. Several well-known diplomats internationally are Swedes, such as Raoul Wallenberg, Dag Hammarskjöld, Folke Bernadotte and Hans Blix.

Some civilizations I would include are, as mentioned earlier, Teutons, Goths and the Huns.

Germans, Germans, Germans?
More or less...

 

[TheLastOne36]

Huns were Germans?

 

[aronnax]

How about Theory of relativity, mass-energy equivalence, the bible, 160 nobel prizes. Oh, the list is too long.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_inventors

On Civ standards, the Jews would be really unimportant but if you look at it from a different angle you'll see people who have been spread from far and wide for 3000 years and are reunited now in Israel with the same culture they have held, no matter if they lived in Morocco, Norway, India or Turkmenistan.
These people are more amazing than most and deserve a spot and at two leaders. I would pick Solomon (Org/Spi/Ind/Phi) and David (Spi/Phi/Org) as leaders but it might be interesting to play David Ben-Gurion (Org/Cha/Pro) or Golda Meir (Cha/Cre/Spi/Org).

I said Israel as a country. Do countries have heads and limbs?
Also if we were taking a country's people's achievements as sucess, it still wont make Israel a valid candidate. The first ten listed are of either American, South African, German, British, Czech, Austrian and Dutch Nationality. And dont bother listing the modern Israelite Scientists, I do not think any "civilization" created after 1700AD a candidate for Civ 4. No matter how great.

If we can add Israel as a civ because after 3000 years "its" people still retained the same culture and move to the same spot. Well then I tell you, we might as well damn add Malta as a civ because they havent moved in 3000 years and still speal Maltese. And why stop at Malta? We can have all the 4 trillion african tribes to be civs. They fit the same criterea

 

[Antilogic]

Germans, Germans, Germans?
More or less...

More or less wrong, that is. The Goths and Teutons at least inhabited the lands we call Germany now. The Huns were Asian steppe horsemen who raided Europe, and their relatives the Magyars were as well (the Vikings of the South, so to speak). Not the same, by a long shot.

 

[ranLR]

Stop confusing Jews with Israelis.

Jews are in the game. The religion can spread all over, just like it did in real history. The ancient state of Israel is not in the game. Neither is the modern state of Israel. Even if you combine them, there are far more worthy candidates.

I've actually found the inclusion of Judaism as a religion (and for that matter all religions) a simplification and generalization that constitutes the single greatest historical flaw in the game.
For example, it couldnt happen in the real world for Judaism to become the world's largest religion, unless original Jews were to conquer the world . The reason is that Judaism, unlike Christianity and Islam is a completely un-missionistic religion in that it is unbelievably difficult for non-Jews to convert to Judaism and preaching Judaism to non-Jews is even considered by many to be a sin. In fact, that is the reason Jews survived 2000 years in exile, by being closed-off and "harmless" (although we now know it was later used against us).

That is also why I think Israel should be included in the game, because of its hegemony. While Israelites (Jews) have not remained a country for 3000 years, they definetly have a single timeline, culminating in todays Israel. And although many Jews dont support Zionism, very very few object to Israels existence and dont see it as the modern Jewish state (there is a sect called "Neturei Karta", but theyre completely wacko anyway).

 

[cybrxkhan]

The Goths and Teutons at least inhabited the lands we call Germany now.

the Goths, and the ancient Teutons were Germanic. the Teutonic Knights did have a lot of Germans... but those are certainly bad choices for civs

 

[Optimizer]

There is a draw between Aboriginal and Commonwealth Australians...

 

[Dutch Canuck]

That's interesting, these 6 civs today have more than 100 votes each, a top 6 listing per se: Iroquois, Poland, Austria, Israel (mostly ancient I think judging ppls comments), Hittites, and Polynesia. Pretty much in line with most of my suggestions.

 

[TheLastOne36]

That's interesting, these 6 civs today have more than 100 votes each, a top 6 listing per se: Iroquois, Poland, Austria, Israel (mostly ancient I think judging ppls comments), Hittites, and Polynesia. Pretty much in line with most of my suggestions.

Yap those are my suggestions to.

 

[ewu.7waker]

Vote for Benin.

 

[Antilogic]

That's interesting, these 6 civs today have more than 100 votes each, a top 6 listing per se: Iroquois, Poland, Austria, Israel (mostly ancient I think judging ppls comments), Hittites, and Polynesia. Pretty much in line with most of my suggestions.

I would call "ancient" Israel by the name of Judea, the Roman name for the area, but that's just personal preference. The name Judea, being used in the Classical period, really strikes home the older civ and not the new one. Like whenever people see "Ethiopia" in the game, they automatically think of the modern country with a pathetic economy and standard of living and wonder why its in the game, and don't think of the history of the region (that's why I favor "Abysinnia for that country).

If anything, I would get rid of the "Native Americans" and then add the Iroquois in. The representation of all "Native American" tribes as Plains Indians--let's face it, totem poles, Dog Soldiers, and Sitting Bull, that's the effect they were shooting for--is a horrible stereotype. Not to mention its confusing with having the Native Americans as well as the Inca, Maya, and Aztecs, all of whom are "Native Americans" as well... The Iroquois were actually a nation with representation from 5/6 tribes, built settlements, etc. and are more appropriately represented with Civ mechanics.

Austria and the Hittites were previous inclusions (Austria the unofficial "extra" Civ of Civ3) that I figured would get back in with BtS. Although I would replace the HRE with Austria, since the Austrians dominated the HRE for centuries. Hell, the colors for the HRE are already the colors of the Habsburg royalty. No problem there!

Polynesia doesn't strike me as a really viable choice. If anything, pick a particular tribe--be more specific. Referring to a generic European term for a group of people spanning thousands of square miles of ocean and small islands doesn't fit the Civ model for civilizations. Poland, however much there is clamoring on the boards for them, is a long shot even for the 2nd expansion pack to a Civ game. I'm not opposed to them personally, but I would put in Austria and the Hittites first.

If I had to pick a list of suggestions, I would select the following as first choices:
Austria
Hittites
Judea
Iroquois
...with Poland being the honorable mention.

 

[Traitorfish]

I would call "ancient" Israel by the name of Judea, the Roman name for the area, but that's just personal preference. The name Judea, being used in the Classical period, really strikes home the older civ and not the new one.

But Judea is just a region of Israel- the area around Jerusalem- and so would not represent the nation as a whole. It'd be like having Wessex for England or Prussia for Germany- sure, they're the most important parts of the country, but they don't represent the country as a whole.

 

[ewu.7waker]

The kingdom of Benin was the most powerful and culturally influential on all of the guinea coast(slave coast) and the forest kingdom, it was looked upon as equals from the mighty Portuguese empire. They gained respect from the oyo, dahomey, hausa, asanti, ijaw, igbo, ogoni and much more because of how impenetrable their borders were. Benin was truely a mighty kingdom that would make a great addition to the civilization series.

Vote for Benin.

 

[Antilogic]

But Judea is just a region of Israel- the area around Jerusalem- and so would not represent the nation as a whole. It'd be like having Wessex for England or Prussia for Germany- sure, they're the most important parts of the country, but they don't represent the country as a whole.

What time period are you referring to? To my understanding, the Romans referred to the entire province inhabited by the Jews to be called Judea. In the modern day, what you say could be quite true (I don't know much about modern Jewish provinces in Israel), but I favor the "historical" name more than the "modern" interpretations.

I took a look on the ever-unreliable Wikipedia just to see if what I'm saying has any backing--I found the name "Iudaea" as the name of the Roman province containing Judea, Samaria, and Idumea. My bad, I appear to have forgotten the proper spelling.

 

[Tanktunker]

How about Theory of relativity, mass-energy equivalence, the bible, 160 nobel prizes. Oh, the list is too long.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_inventors

On Civ standards, the Jews would be really unimportant but if you look at it from a different angle you'll see people who have been spread from far and wide for 3000 years and are reunited now in Israel with the same culture they have held, no matter if they lived in Morocco, Norway, India or Turkmenistan.
These people are more amazing than most and deserve a spot and at two leaders. I would pick Solomon (Org/Spi/Ind/Phi) and David (Spi/Phi/Org) as leaders but it might be interesting to play David Ben-Gurion (Org/Cha/Pro) or Golda Meir (Cha/Cre/Spi/Org).

Solomon would certaintly be Spi/Ind and David would either be Spi/Agg or Spi/Pro.

 

[Saim]

"All but silent", you're making us sound noisy, though I don't think that's what you were intending to do
And I don't agree on Sweden being silent in World Affairs since the 18th century, rather on the contrary. Several well-known diplomats internationally are Swedes, such as Raoul Wallenberg, Dag Hammarskjöld, Folke Bernadotte and Hans Blix.



Germans, Germans, Germans?
More or less...

"Teuton" is an other name for "German", that is true, but the Goths are a Germanic tribe and don't even get me started on the Huns .

What time period are you referring to? To my understanding, the Romans referred to the entire province inhabited by the Jews to be called Judea. In the modern day, what you say could be quite true (I don't know much about modern Jewish provinces in Israel), but I favor the "historical" name more than the "modern" interpretations.

I took a look on the ever-unreliable Wikipedia just to see if what I'm saying has any backing--I found the name "Iudaea" as the name of the Roman province containing Judea, Samaria, and Idumea. My bad, I appear to have forgotten the proper spelling.

Yes, the Romans referred to the area as Judea. BUT before the Romans conquered it it was the "Kingdom of Israel". The Kingdom of Judah also split from it. So having Judah or Israel would make sense, but having the Israelites called Judeans would be like calling whoever lived in Anatolia at the time of the Romans "Asians".

 

[pavel1269]

Czech's! P

 

[picnicboy]

More or less wrong, that is. The Goths and Teutons at least inhabited the lands we call Germany now. The Huns were Asian steppe horsemen who raided Europe, and their relatives the Magyars were as well (the Vikings of the South, so to speak). Not the same, by a long shot.

I don't know anything for sure, I've just read somewhere that the German people of today largely are ancestors to, among others, the Huns and Goths.

 

[Antilogic]

As others have mentioned since me, the Teutons and Goths are Germanic. However, the Huns are anything but. They came from Asia.

The Germans were called the "Huns" in WW1 propaganda posters and stuff, but that was just to inculcate the idea that the Germans were bloodthirsty barbarians that couldn't be trusted. It was propaganda.

 

[Bahacles44]

The kingdom of Benin was the most powerful and culturally influential on all of the guinea coast(slave coast) and the forest kingdom, it was looked upon as equals from the mighty Portuguese empire. They gained respect from the oyo, dahomey, hausa, asanti, ijaw, igbo, ogoni and much more because of how impenetrable their borders were. Benin was truely a mighty kingdom that would make a great addition to the civilization series.

Vote for Benin.

Not many people realize how advanced the West African kingdoms were and how early. No, they didn't develop nuclear weapons, but they were fully equivalent to medieval european civ in many ways. My personal preference would be the Yoruba, but the Sokoto Caliphate had armored knights in chainmail when the first european explorers stumbled through. (Bet you didn't know that!)