What should Civilization VII bring back from previous installments?

[aieeegrunt]

Lost at sea -- Part of the reason that players in Civ1/Civ2/Civ3/Civ4 would spend the resources to build a boat and send it out on a (potentially) one-way trip was the incentive for meeting other civs. Tech trading was allowed and encouraged in Civ3 and Civ4; I didn't play Civ1 and don't have a clear memory of whether it was possible in Civ2. Absent those incentives for exploration, @Naokaukodem has a good point. The player would be risking early production for little gain. I could still see a risk/reward decision regarding sending an embarked settler and embarked archer across deep water to plant a city on an island near a key resource.

I was (and still am) a fan of tech trading from the earlier games in the franchise. It certainly helped me catch up in the early game. Those games had fewer luxury resources for happiness (what are now called amenities), so offering a tech to an AI might convince them to sell you their spare lux for 20/30 turns in the mid- and late-game. I would favor bringing back tech trading.

Tech trading really needs to come back; it succinctly shows why Europe was able to quickly gain such a commanding science lead, and why large blobs like China and India tended to stagnate

Civ6 has the opposite mechanic, where large population blobs are key. This is literally the opposite of how history and society actually work

1. But it has to be limited stackings, not limitless stack of doom.
Also 'one turn resolves' rocks. actually it is more historical accurate when one turn takes at least one year.
2. Transport ship mechanisms has to be also reworked. before dedicated troop transports came to exists (or even as late as Russo-Japanese War). soldiers being loaded into watercrafts are also active combatants on board a watercraft. they don't just sit around when ship to ship fighting takes place. but they don't fight at full strenghts as some abilities on land are marginalized or even not available at sea, (cavalry keep their horses / vehicles inside the ship's hold and not on deck, each cavalrymen must fight dismounted like generic infantryman, combat strenght reduced, all combat resolves in this situation is resolved as infantry VS infantry)

There are several mods for Civ6 that show how limited stacking is dramatically superior to 1UPT in basically every way

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

There are several mods for Civ6 that show how limited stacking is dramatically superior to 1UPT in basically every way

Eh? Do you have a link of that mod and is it active and compatible with latest patch ??

 

[jsciv69]

Wild Animals.
Back in Civ IV. The game started with wild animal barbarians. This should most certainly return . And It should be an all-game thing. Especially Wolves and Bears attacking farms. Bringing a need for the Civ to produce Shepherd type units to protect the agriculture. Perhaps have a Civ produce it's own animals like dogs to protect the sheep. Just a thought.

 

[Evie]

Tech trading really needs to come back; it succinctly shows why Europe was able to quickly gain such a commanding science lead, and why large blobs like China and India tended to stagnate

Civ6 has the opposite mechanic, where large population blobs are key. This is literally the opposite of how history and society actually work

A questionable (at best) interpretation of history. India rarely was a blob ; meanwhile the golden age of Islam was fairly blobby and producing scholarly advancement while Europe, even more divided than in the Renaissance, was not doing so well ; and in more modern parlance while some large empires have struggled with implementing technology at the social level (which is more, in game term, infrastructure-building than tech research), large nations like the United States are among the worldwide research leaders.

WEalth and exposure to other ideas, far more than empire size or number of neighbors, are much more likely culprit of advancement, with isolation and poverty usually delaying advancement. Having more neighbors help with exposure to new ideas, but that can be achieved in other ways too - trading missions, foreign military adventures (the Crusades readily come to mind) and increased openness to new ideas at the internal level are all other ways to get that done.

Tech trade would still be nice to have back, mind you.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Wild Animals.
Back in Civ IV. The game started with wild animal barbarians. This should most certainly return . And It should be an all-game thing. Especially Wolves and Bears attacking farms. Bringing a need for the Civ to produce Shepherd type units to protect the agriculture. Perhaps have a Civ produce it's own animals like dogs to protect the sheep. Just a thought.

If we were to get a hypothetical Neolithic/Nomadic Era I'd like to see something like this implemented. I'd argue that other animals could roam around like deer, cattle, and horses etc. until you learn Animal Husbandry, which would then fix these on whatever tiles they landed on.

 

[Patine]

large nations like the United States are among the worldwide research leaders.

East Asian nations - including modern India - certainly fit into this label as well, and Britain, France, and Germany used to be top tier, and are still no slackers in research today, while in the Islamic-era of India, and the highly divided, Post Renaissance era of Europe, the U.S. was a largely agrarian backwater. The time period application of this argument, and the point it's trying to make, is confusing.

 

[jsciv69]

If we were to get a hypothetical Neolithic/Nomadic Era I'd like to see something like this implemented. I'd argue that other animals could roam around like deer, cattle, and horses etc. until you learn Animal Husbandry, which would then fix these on whatever tiles they landed on.

How about each city settled on or near Jungle or Forest terrain, can be attacked by predators. Citizens, livestock, and vegetation/agriculture would be targets. Attacks could be random throughout the game. or as long as those Jungle and Forests terrains remain uncleared. The Civ can counter these. Dog units could be a solution. Workers/citizens converted to automated Shepherds. Animals can attack also from rivers and lakes. Especially if the Amazon is featured in the game.

 

[Evie]

The point largely being for me that there is no apparent correlation between blobbing/deblobbing and technological research.

 

[Patine]

Wild Animals.
Back in Civ IV. The game started with wild animal barbarians. This should most certainly return . And It should be an all-game thing. Especially Wolves and Bears attacking farms. Bringing a need for the Civ to produce Shepherd type units to protect the agriculture. Perhaps have a Civ produce it's own animals like dogs to protect the sheep. Just a thought.

I'm not a big fan of this wild predator mechanic. It seems like an annoyance, at best, and by the time you have certain community watch and other organizational techs that are implied in standard techs early on, it's negligent as a threat on the scope of a Civ game, except maybe for a scout unit. Certainly not whole cities - even ones near jungle or forest. I mean, the odd one does get in and cause trouble - he have the odd bear or cougar (not referring to the dating archetypes! ) get into Edmonton, and leopards into cities in India, and other examples. But they don't, "attack," the cities like barbarian units do. The notion is a bit wonky. It's almost like a B-movie, the main villain in the cartoonish spy-fi parady, "Leonard, Part VI's" master plan, or like the book Hitchcock made into a move, "the Birds."

 

[jsciv69]

I'm not a big fan of this wild predator mechanic. It seems like an annoyance, at best, and by the time you have certain community watch and other organizational techs that are implied in standard techs early on, it's negligent as a threat on the scope of a Civ game, except maybe for a scout unit. Certainly not whole cities - even ones near jungle or forest. I mean, the odd one does get in and cause trouble - he have the odd bear or cougar (not referring to the dating archetypes! ) get into Edmonton, and leopards into cities in India, and other examples. But they don't, "attack," the cities like barbarian units do. The notion is a bit wonky. It's almost like a B-movie, the main villain in the cartoonish spy-fi parady, "Leonard, Part VI's" master plan, or like the book Hitchcock made into a move, "the Birds."

Of course a Lion is not going to roll a Cannon in place for an artillery barrage. But they will prey on wondering nomads. Defeat the predator and the Nomad becomes users choice of settler, worker, or perhaps a Shepherd or Breeder Unit. Say a pack of wild dogs are headed toward a farm or pasture. Send a Shepherd or Breeder Unit to capture and domesticate the Dogs. And they become automated protectors of the City's food and livestock.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Wild animals would not be interesting as enemies (yet another feature that can screw you early), but as animals to domesticate.

 

[Patine]

Of course a Lion is not going to roll a Cannon in place for an artillery barrage. But they will prey on wondering nomads. Defeat the predator and the Nomad becomes users choice of settler, worker, or perhaps a Shepherd or Breeder Unit. Say a pack of wild dogs are headed toward a farm or pasture. Send a Shepherd or Breeder Unit to capture and domesticate the Dogs. And they become automated protectors of the City's food and livestock.

But you spoke of this as a feature throughout the game, not just early on, and, "attacking," whole cities built near certain terrain. That's what I found wonky, and couldn't agree with.

 

[jsciv69]

But you spoke of this as a feature throughout the game, not just early on, and, "attacking," whole cities built near certain terrain. That's what I found wonky, and couldn't agree with.

If you've played Civ IV. You know what I mean by bringing back wild animals. But they disappear after a certain era and become barbarians. In real life predators do still attack pastures and farms. Ones that are unguarded will lose their livestock and crops. So I say let's bring some of that reality back to the game and use these animals more naturally. It keeps the Civ on it's toes to make sure the pastures and farms are protected. This brings an idea of having swamp terrain in the game. It could certainly make the game more interesting. Of course, as with Barbarians, the user can always check off the No Wild Animals box.

 

[Patine]

If you've played Civ IV.

I haven't played either Civ4 or Civ5, I admit.

In real life predators do still attack pastures and farms. Ones that are unguarded will lose their livestock and crops.

But not to the degree that food production on THE SCALE OF A CIV GAME would be dented or meaningfully affected.

 

[Evie]

In real life, predators attacks on pastures and farms account for a negligible amount of livestock losses (diseases and accidents are both much more common causes) ; certainly not enough to justify a significant impact at the civ level. Even going all the way back to six thousand years ago, I doubt there have been many if any instances of famine or food supply crisis triggered by predator attacks, ever.

 

[Patine]

In real life, predators attacks on pastures and farms account for a negligible amount of livestock loss ; certainly not enough to justify a significant impact at the civ level.

As I said, and was probalby typing at the same time.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The most dangerous "Wild Animal Predators" wouldn't show up on a Civ map: they'd be rats and mice and birds that eat crops (both standing and in storage) and mosquitos and other insects that spread diseases like 'bad air' (Mal Aria). Compared to the devastation those have inflicted, all the attacks by larger critters are nothing.

And, of course, people have answers to them, of sorts: domestic cats to reduce the rodents, children with thrown rocks or slings to keep birds out of fields, siting villages away from swamps and their 'bad air' which coincidentally also places the homes out of range of the bugs. Not fancy, but to an extent they've worked since Prehistoric times.

 

[BuchiTaton]

A questionable (at best) interpretation of history. India rarely was a blob ; meanwhile the golden age of Islam was fairly blobby and producing scholarly advancement while Europe, even more divided than in the Renaissance, was not doing so well ; and in more modern parlance while some large empires have struggled with implementing technology at the social level (which is more, in game term, infrastructure-building than tech research), large nations like the United States are among the worldwide research leaders.

WEalth and exposure to other ideas, far more than empire size or number of neighbors, are much more likely culprit of advancement, with isolation and poverty usually delaying advancement. Having more neighbors help with exposure to new ideas, but that can be achieved in other ways too - trading missions, foreign military adventures (the Crusades readily come to mind) and increased openness to new ideas at the internal level are all other ways to get that done.

Tech trade would still be nice to have back, mind you.

Maybe something liket this:
- "Diversity Bonuses", those come from neighboring civs, population of different heritages withing your empire, trade routes and different religions.
- "Ideologies Selection", things like Esotericism, Monasticism, Pluralism, Skepticism, Positivism, etc. Working as policies that promote new knowledge.
- "Research Investment" pretty much any big empire can use their funds to build universities, patronage great minds, etc.

 

[megabearsfan]

Bad idea to incentive players to try a passage for at the end a loss of production early. Beside some point, everybody would understand that it doesn't worth the cost. So it's a useless feature.

Worst idea ever. I think that even if the game would go back to SODs, I would still prefer auto-embark. That said, sending a settler with no escort across the seas is still a bad idea, especially if barbarians are on. But I would never return back to the logistic mini-game nightmare such as building enough transports for your current and future units.

Graphics, especially leaderheads, have always been cartoonish. A more serious design would make them totally out of place. As to units, I don't bother looking at them, I just look at their icon, which need of clarity overpasses the need of any style. Cities, are cartoonish also, if you consider how grossly they are represented. As to features, they are cartoonish in a sense that they are limited to one single tile, and often out of proportion compared to units/cities.

I can see a case for a hybrid approach that allows auto-embarkation but also includes dedicated naval transport vessels. Land units could be able to auto-embark, but would be slow, vulnerable, and limited to 1 per tile, making it difficult to escort and protect large convoys of multiple embarked units. A dedicated naval transport unit could allow stacking several units into the transport, could have higher movement speed, would include the ability to defend itself, and would allow for more compact convoy formations that would be easier to protect.

Depending on the scale of the map, you could even have a mechanic in which a dedicated naval unit is necessary for transport across ocean or rough seas. But units can exit those transports while still in the water, cross the remaining distance to shore while individually embarked, and disembark onto land where they want (as opposed to having to move the transport all the way up to shore to disembark the units onto adjacent land tiles). Probably overkill in a game at the scale of Civ, but possible.

 

[Patine]

I can see a case for a hybrid approach that allows auto-embarkation but also includes dedicated naval transport vessels. Land units could be able to auto-embark, but would be slow, vulnerable, and limited to 1 per tile, making it difficult to escort and protect large convoys of multiple embarked units. A dedicated naval transport unit could allow stacking several units into the transport, could have higher movement speed, would include the ability to defend itself, and would allow for more compact convoy formations that would be easier to protect.

Depending on the scale of the map, you could even have a mechanic in which a dedicated naval unit is necessary for transport across ocean or rough seas. But units can exit those transports while still in the water, cross the remaining distance to shore while individually embarked, and disembark onto land where they want (as opposed to having to move the transport all the way up to shore to disembark the units onto adjacent land tiles). Probably overkill in a game at the scale of Civ, but possible.

Civ2 and Civ3 (I don't know about Civ4) already had, for the most part, dedicated naval transport vessels, but had the units physically embarking and disembarking, a system I want to return. Since I've opposed the ridiculous notion of 1UPT on the scale of the Civ game from the start, and sincerely hope it's a mistake that's away with in the future, one-unit disembarkment zones are immaterial as any sort of compromise, to me.