What Would Improve The Underpowered UBs?

MilesBeyond

Prince
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Nov 10, 2011
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I wouldn't say there are any overpowered UBs. As great as the Terrace is, probably no one's ever lost a game because their enemy could build them.

However, there are a lot of UBs that aren't considered terribly useful, and rightly so. So, what would make them more useful?
 
Mint +25% :gold:. For a building only hammer cities are going to have there isn't much synergy giving them a tiny % increase on virtually nothing.

Salon add 1 or 2 artist specialist slots, or maybe reduce the cost. One free artist is almost a joke.

Feitoria add the +1:commerce: to river tiles too.

Research institute for how late it comes needs more oomph. Add 2 sci spec slots.

Likewise Mall. Add another :food:.

Dun put it on a building other than walls :D No, can't blame the UB for being on a sucky building. It's nice for the celt AIs.
 
Kinda loaded question as it ends up in another worst UB debate. Probably helps to post a list of generally accepted terrible UBs, which can be found in a poll thread somewhere. I do agree that UBs in general are not game changers with maybe one or two exceptions, and even those UBs are attached to marginal civ/leaders.

First, in response to KidR above, I think the Mint is fine as it is and a very good UB. I build forges almost everywhere regardless of base hammers, as the building enhances whipping in high food cities - cities that can later run Mint boosted hammers. Forges are not just for hammer cities. +25% seems a bit OP to me.

As for the Mall, I think it is actually an very good UB that is made basically irrelevant due to the timing in the game, as one may never even reach the Fridge in many VC types. However, it's great for late game rush buying and happiness in Space games or in late era starts. IMO it is a "flavor" UB for a civ that logically would not have a special UB in early eras. However, it is quite strong for its time. So for the Mall, I don't think the outputs need to be change. If anything, it could arrive a tech or two earlier, but then what building would it replace.

Research Institute - I'd rather have a small boost in space parts production. The extra scientists really don't add much late game.

Salon - Small boost to research or +2 happiness or health. Nix the artist

Feitoria - While keeping the +1 to water tiles, reduce the cost of the building by say 25%

Dun - Yeah, a wall UB is pretty crappy, but I like the synergy of the Dun with the UU in niche games. However, the problem is that it does not do as advertised in giving Guerrilla to all units. So around the time you are building GWs only archers get the benefit. That can still be interesting and I've had fun with it, but I'd prefer that axe/spears got the promo as well to support the GWs in a fast moving powerful army. Dun is by no means a good UB but it can be fun in the right circumstances.

Stele - At first glance, this UB is certainly not very synergistic with the creative Zara. However, it does have it's uses in securing borders or even commando settling against the AI. Still, not so hot a UU. I'd say one added bonus would be that the Stele never obsoletes. I think folks would be more inclined to build it. Otherwise, it is almost completely worthless and almost never built as Ethiopians except in some border cities.

Obelisk - Ha...change the priest slots to scientists, but then that might be consider OP. OR maybe 1 priest and 1 scientist. Kinda a mini-Madrassa. Heck, even 1 scientist only would be pretty sweet.

Assembly Plant - Change it to a Forge UB with extra engineer slots - it would also have trait synergy with 1 German leader. Germans have been around long enough to have an earlier UB so as not to have both late game uniques. Well, either extra engineer slots - probably not 4 though or a slight production boost. Not sure what a comparative historical building would be.

Pavilion - I'd rather have extra static happiness or health than extra culture.

Hippodrome - Keep the same, but return the artist slots. The building does have its uses.

Trading Post - Not really a bad UB in the sense that it replaces a building that you always build, but the bonus is not always that useful in some games (it is a nice bonus though and synergistic with the UU). I'd add +1 health or happiness to the building to make it have some value in all games to grow coastal cities a bit larger, which in turn can boost trade route income.

Citadel - Building can be a lot of fun if you make use of it. Like some other not so hot UBs it comes on a building that is rarely built. Furthermore, the building obsoletes rather quickly. However, if you do use it, you can build a bunch of siege quickly that you upgrade to powerful cannons later. IMO - I'd like to see the building simply obsolete a bit later to give a bit more time. Overall though, the main reason I don't like the Citadel is that the bonus affects units that are near in timeframe but very non-synergistic with what I think is the best UU in the game. Overall, I never build the Citadel though.

Forum - Nix the +25% GPP and add +2 health. For the only market UU, I'd rather see some synergy here that allows for more city growth.

Baray - I'm probably in the minority in thinking this is actually a pretty good UB. It provides a bonus on one of the most important aspects of the game - food. Yeah, +1 doesn't see like much but it still does a lot, allowing for faster city growth or being able to work that last mine or run an extra specialist when food comes out odd. Especially beneficial in those not so food rich resource cities you have to settle, making them more productive. And don't forget whip recovery either. When combined with arguably one of the best Leaders in the game - despite a terrible UU - it's pretty strong. Still, adding...say...+1 happy in addition to the existing +1 food to the building might convince folks that it is more worthwhile. Not bad for a rather early game building. I think it would put it more on the level of the excellent Hammam.
 
The obelisk is such an early building, I think a scientist on it might be gamebreaking :p
 
Some good suggestions all around. A couple of comments:

What if the Obelisk allowed an Artist slot? This would give the player the opportunity for a slightly faster border pop, but more importantly it would allow for an early Great Artist to do some significant cultural expansion, or for some added culture in a frontier city that's warring with borders.

I actually don't dislike the Obelisk as it is now since it gives the potential for a very early Golden Age or Great Specialist, depending on which would be more beneficial (probably the specialist, that early on).


For the Assembly Plant, I think that it should either replace the Forge, or it should have a much stronger bonus. If it were to give a base +50% production, going up to +75% or maybe even +100% with power, then it would be more viable and would help Germany kick things up a notch in the endgame. I feel that if a Civ is going to get a late bonus, it's got to be dramatic enough to be able to offset the long-term impact of early bonuses. Giving a raw strength boost to the Panzer might not hurt either...
 
Feitoria - While keeping the +1 to water tiles, reduce the cost of the building by say 25%

I'd also like to see it pull a Ziggurat type thing, and come in on an earlier tech than the building it replaces. Mostly for flavor, to put it in at around the time Portugal was historically leveraging it, but also so it has a better chance of being relevant.

Obelisk - Ha...change the priest slots to scientists, but then that might be consider OP. OR maybe 1 priest and 1 scientist. Kinda a mini-Madrassa. Heck, even 1 scientist only would be pretty sweet.

Alternately: beef up priests and/or great prophets, so the current slots are more worth bothering with.
 
The main strength of the obelisk is to be able to build a shrine or settle a priest incredibly early. The early gold does wonders for expansion and/or slider.

Research Institute, Salon, and Shale Plant are probably the worst offenders. Some suggestions:

Russia: Some sort of espionage-related UB with 'KGB' in the name. Perhaps plop Vladimir Putin's face on it.

France: A 'Bistro' to replace the grocer. Add +1 happiness for those long 2-hour lunches.

Japan: A 'Dojo' to replace barracks. Some sort of military bonus. Alternatives: Pachinko Parlours, Love Hotels, Capsule Hotels, Automated Parking Garages, Onsen, Hidden Ninja Villages.
 
The main strength of the obelisk is to be able to build a shrine or settle a priest incredibly early. The early gold does wonders for expansion and/or slider.

It still plays to a very niche sort of game that is often just not optimal, especially on higher levels. I'd much rather have GPPs going toward scientists for my first GP. Same reason I would never want a artist slot on the obelisk as well (as mentioned above)...not worth the slightly faster border pop (you still have to build the thing) or the great artist points. (not saying that there should be scientist slots either..kinda joking on thought.)

There could be some advantage to OCC games and Ram is one of the strong OCC leaders. Settled GPs are indeed quite solid in that case.


As for Shale Plant, it's a rather underrated UB. Not bad when you think about it. It gives tangible and useful benefit over and above the building it replaces.
 
The value-over-base of the Research Institute in other UBs:
+4 Barays (food to feed 2 scientists)
+1 Hammam (they don't cut into your happiness cap)
+1 Apothecary (they don't cut into your health cap)
+1 Obelisk-ish (2 specialist slots)
This assumes scientist specialists are a reasonable option (reasonable itself) and disregards trade/maintenance balance (which ought to be a good thing if your lategame revolves around corporations). It's late, but well worth a beeline.

Shale plants allow you to get rid of coal which can alleviate the usual health trouble at this time and can be used in your national park city. Not good, but a lot better than most think.

The Dun puts your units a full promotion ahead, which beats the pants off most other military buildings (and putting G3 in easy reach makes it a decent one). It also lasts longer than totem poles on average, being able to affect musketmen and grenadiers.

Obelisk is hard to grade. Often irrelevant, but it's the building most likely to enable a cheese win (Apostolic Palace).

The Mall isn't very powerful but the synergy with a Financial leader saves. There is *some* bonus early on, and in a total rushbuy economy the 10% has a lot of raw gold to act on later.
 
Automated Parking Garages
:lol: Free march promotion? That would be a really good lategame building.

I forgot about the stele, not sure what could improve that. Maybe +25%:espionage: instead of :culture: would be interesting and not OP?
 
Likewise Mall. Add another :food:

Oh, so thats why Americans are all fat :lol:

I personally think the Citadel is perplexing and useless as is:

1) the castle-building era is very short, typically
2) and its one of very few UBs that have a pre-req (walls) to build first
3) I never thought Spain was especially well known for having strong siege engines :p
4) I can say I honestly seldom build castles in cities I plan on producing tons of units in, unless I have stone and I think that city is at risk of being attacked by a strong AI. Know what's better than a castle though? A bunch of knights, which I'd rather be building in that castle time period...

If anything it should add an extra trade route or provide some extra culture or something. Or maybe an XP boost to mounted units. Spain did, after all, conquer the new world with Conquistadors -- and were usually horribly outnumbered!
 
It gives Spain a strong Lib-Steel play. Build a ton of trebs using the citadel while running vassalage/theo. Grab econ for the GM then Lib-Steel. Result: CR3 cannons ready to go. Trade around for MT so you'll also have Conquistadors to protect them.
 
It gives Spain a strong Lib-Steel play. Build a ton of trebs using the citadel while running vassalage/theo. Grab econ for the GM then Lib-Steel. Result: CR3 cannons ready to go. Trade around for MT so you'll also have Conquistadors to protect them.

Meh, but the Lib-beeline to MT is more dependable and I'd rather have stronger Conquistadors than cannons anyways. Three-promo Conquistadors > three-promo cannons IMO.

Ooh, or how about citadels generate more :espionage:? That would be more befitting if you ask me...
 
It gives Spain a strong Lib-Steel play. Build a ton of trebs using the citadel while running vassalage/theo. Grab econ for the GM then Lib-Steel. Result: CR3 cannons ready to go. Trade around for MT so you'll also have Conquistadors to protect them.
There was a neat Churchill of Spain game over in the Strategy & Tactics forum.

It's the only game where I researched Artillery before Economics.
 
Castles are fair buildings. Espionage is unnecessary but not necessarily weak, and if you have stone the trade route alone isn't outright horrible for the investment. Anything on top and "you have no reason to build it" doesn't work against it.

Castles usually obsolete quickly but they don't have to - there is nothing critical at or shortly behind Economics. Corporations have a solid alternative in Communism, the bonus trade route from Corporation just negates the loss of castles without replacing the defense or espionage bonus, and if you have the Great Lighthouse benefiting the majority of you empire you may want to postpone this branch for a long time.
Sure, you won't get Infantry... but CR3 Artillery is a force to be reckoned with.
 
If you beeline cannons, it really doesn't matter if they're cr3 or cr2.
 
Well, with cr3 you're more likely to keep more of your cannons, especially the first few that go in. CR3 artillery can wreck infantry and stuff pretty badly.

It would be totally awesome with an engineering bulb but Spain starts with fishing derp.

The Citadel's definitely not the worst and I could imagine it seeing use, it's just that the UU overshadows it all.
 
Well, with cr3 you're more likely to keep more of your cannons, especially the first few that go in. CR3 artillery can wreck infantry and stuff pretty badly.

It would be totally awesome with an engineering bulb but Spain starts with fishing derp.

The Citadel's definitely not the worst and I could imagine it seeing use, it's just that the UU overshadows it all.

As was mentioned, there's an anti-synergy for Spain's UB/UU. It's often an either/or proposition for me which is aggravating. I actually like the Citadel, although I only build one or two. What I like is getting accuracy right off on the siege I use to strip the defenses without having to use an inferior civic. I tend to specialize my cannons. And I agree that CR3 over CR2 would make a difference.

Maybe I'm not playing optimally but I do go for Economics soon after the citadels. I just pump out trebs in my military cities in the meantime. The Treb-Cannon upgrade isn't that expensive.
 
To be honest I have to agree with Iranon ... I really don't see the fixation a lot of people have with the Economics tech. Unless you are in position of getting the free GM or really want the Custom Houses ( really, don't go that way, they are not worth it :p ), the only thing that the tech give is access to Free Market ... that might be worthy or not ( if you can tech Economics, you atleast have access to mercantilism, that might be superior to FM ... ) ...

Anyway CRIII arties out of the assembly line are IMHO more than good enough to delay Economics for a while :D So I would not consider the Spanish UB bad in any sense ... the arguments about ahistoricity or anti-synergy ( whatever that is :D ) might hold some water, but the thread is about underpowered UB ... and that the Citatel ain't :D

On other UBs ... well, I guess that my distaste for the Portuguese one is well known ( really: ahistorical, bad graphs and mounted in top of the arguably worst new BtS building ). I always wanted a harbor UB of some kind for the Portuguese and given the UU ability, they could had thinked in a Ikhanda-like harbor. But no, let's make a 1 city Collosus more expensive than the Collosus itself :/
 
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