Which civs are best suited for adopting Commerce?

[reddishrecue]

Big ben and commerce purchases are so cheap that its great..

 

[johnnybaseball]

Is there ever a time where Merchants are useful? Or is the policy that enhances trade missions purely a wasted policy?

 

[consentient]

The problem with protectionism is that you pay for that power, in turns waiting to get it. It's the mandatory 5th policy in commerce and the merchant bonus feels like dead weight for a while.

That said, I still like the tree, along with autocracy it's the best sustained conquest tree for sure. I've had games with terrible unhappiness from ideological pressure (36 unhappiness) but commerce/autocracy overpowered it and I had close to 20 happiness on 20+ cities.

For SV games I think rationalism is still much better, because you're usually more science capped than anything else and the ability to get more science *and* faith buy great scientists really pushes rationalism up as a priority pick in SV games. When you're looking to end the game with something like arty or anything before, however, commerce is stronger outright IMO. The big ben + commerce + auto synergy is crazy.

I agree with everything you said, but I'd like to reiterate that I was saying 'Commerce is normally my second tree. This is because I hardly ever go for SV. Only once in 25 games just to keep things fresh. I find it to be an utterly boring VC. Completely formulaic and non-interactive. You don't actually have to do anything. If there was a mod that could let you give control of your tech path, diplomacy and build queue to an automatic pilot, you would win SV every time. Plus, having Commerce right side + Big Ben will help with Freedom SVs, I should think.

TLDR: For conquest, if this isn't your 2nd tree, you're making it hard for yourself.

 

[ToborajniN]

I think the Incans are one of the strongest civs for adopting commerce. The amount of gold you gain/save by roads alone will be crazy for them. And just as Consentient said: any civ going for domV will benefit greatly from commerce.

 

[beetle]

The problem with protectionism is that you pay for that power, in turns waiting to get it. It's the mandatory 5th policy in commerce and the merchant bonus feels like dead weight for a while.

I think the net cost is the delay to one or two Autocracy policies. You pick up a couple policies waiting on Rationalism to unlock, so instead of being spare, those are two picks in a core tree. Then Ideologies take a bit to unlock too, so that could be two or even three more picks. The Level 1 happy tenets from Autocracy are not that strong, but protectionism is crazy strong, so it seems like a no-compromise choice.

 

[NukeAJS]

As Inca you can build roads/railroads for zero maintenance with wagon trains. Which pretty much means you can put roads everywhere. It's almost impossible to attack Inca when they do this as they can support their front from 20 tiles away.

 

[stormtrooper412]

yeah but it also potentially leaves their cap open for a decapitation strike

 

[shaglio]

yeah but it also potentially leaves their cap open for a decapitation strike

Seems rather fitting as their massive road network ultimately led to their downfall at the hands of the Spaniards.

 

[reddishrecue]

The Spaniards needed to move out because the ottomans had come and conquered much of Spain during that time.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think the net cost is the delay to one or two Autocracy policies. You pick up a couple policies waiting on Rationalism to unlock, so instead of being spare, those are two picks in a core tree. Then Ideologies take a bit to unlock too, so that could be two or even three more picks. The Level 1 happy tenets from Autocracy are not that strong, but protectionism is crazy strong, so it seems like a no-compromise choice.

Yeah, depending on where you are culturally you may or may not finish commerce in a timely fashion pre-ideology, but finishing it is still very attractive.

It also depends whether you're first to autocracy. If you get two freebies then you have that strong bonus from barracks line buildings as a tier 2 tenet available.

 

[beetle]

It also depends whether you're first to autocracy. If you get two freebies then you have that strong bonus from barracks line buildings as a tier 2 tenet available.

That is good observation.

Yeah, depending on where you are culturally you may or may not finish commerce in a timely fashion pre-ideology, but finishing it is still very attractive.

I was thinking about this more. In my typical play, I have a couple sub-optimal picks waiting for Rationalism, and then at least the right-hand-side of Rationalism before being able to concentrate on Ideology tenets. So that is five picks -- and Protectionism only needs six. Plus, again in my typical play, I really want to eventually fill out all of Rationalism -- but the opportunity cost for that is fewer Ideology tenets.

So I an thinking maybe I should adopt Commerce every game? I plan to experiment with that and see how it goes. Skipping Rationalism scares me, but Protectionism every game? And more Ideology tenets to boot? Seems very compelling! It could be the case that all civs are best suited for adopting Commerce all the time!

 

[Plumfairy]

Is there ever a time where Merchants are useful? Or is the policy that enhances trade missions purely a wasted policy?

Obviously, Venice benefits from them.

Also, I've had good experiences generating Merchants while playing Austria.

 

[Tabarnak]

Since Rationalism can't wait the only policies that worth it are discount for roads or free landsneckts. And that's for any civs. But only if you have 2 or less coastal cities. Otherwise 2 policies into Exploration(hammer boost for coastal cities) beat Commerce.

Don't forget that 1 hammer = 3 gold. It's the first thing that should be calculated before taking any decisions.

 

[Redaxe]

Is there ever a time where Merchants are useful? Or is the policy that enhances trade missions purely a wasted policy?

Sure there is.
If you have the opportunity to buy Great Merchants with Faith through Commerce or the Glory of God reformation you can use them to perform trade missions on Citystates.

That can be helpful to get some late game gold or help with diplomatic victories.

If you have Freedom and the New Deal policy a Customs House will produce a base of 10 gold per turn with gold boosting buildings that can be 20 gpt. That can be a useful use of merchants in certain circumstances but most people seem to want to get super early victories on Diety now so the payoff of this may not be that noticeable if you are nearly finished your game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That is good observation.



I was thinking about this more. In my typical play, I have a couple sub-optimal picks waiting for Rationalism, and then at least the right-hand-side of Rationalism before being able to concentrate on Ideology tenets. So that is five picks -- and Protectionism only needs six. Plus, again in my typical play, I really want to eventually fill out all of Rationalism -- but the opportunity cost for that is fewer Ideology tenets.

So I an thinking maybe I should adopt Commerce every game? I plan to experiment with that and see how it goes. Skipping Rationalism scares me, but Protectionism every game? And more Ideology tenets to boot? Seems very compelling! It could be the case that all civs are best suited for adopting Commerce all the time!

I think for SV you really want rationalism finished, not only for its raw science output but also because you can faith-buy scientists then, and research speed is almost certainly the bottleneck so having several extra bulbs (and maybe a spillover great engineer once that's too costly) is pretty attractive.

For other VC it's a little bit less obvious and I think commerce is a potentially competitive choice.

 

[claudiupb]

Even if going for SV, after getting Secularism + Humanism + Free Thought I will usually stop completing rationalism until late game. Sometimes I will get Sovereignty if I really need the money, but that adds a merely 4 GPT per city, which should not matter in a peaceful SV game.

I only complete Rationalism later when I get at least a free Informational era tech (preferably late Information era). If you keep your GS and start bulbing them on key techs after Plastics, you have enough of them. Later when you finish rationalism you can buy with faith the rest of them, and finish the last techs you need.

After those 4 policies in rationalism, I usually finish the tree that I started in medieval (usually commerce, sometimes patronage). I also try to get as many relevant policies as I can in the ideology track. I leave the level 3 one for later, for a SV game, as it does not really matter when you get it, just to have it at least 3-4 turns before you finish the game.

If I win World's Fair, I wind up with more policies than I need, and usually waste the last ones on things that don't help me too much. If I don't win it, I at least try for the free policy. At that point I usually start to bulb all my Great Writers (I never use them for great works), preferably with hermitage bonus, golden age bonus, and if i have a GE and Plastics, with Cristo Redentor bonus. I keep one for finishing rationalism or Space Procurement/Spaceflight Pioneers depending on which I want faster.

With this strategy I will almost always get to complete 3 SP trees (Tradition, Commerce/Patronage and Rationalism for a SV game), and get 6 ideology tenants, even without winning World's Fair.

So to answer the original question: all civs are suited for Commerce, because commerce is suited for all victory conditions, giving not only gold bonuses but also happiness bonuses. It is probably not so good for Cultural Victory, but it can be useful for that too, if you have policies to spare.

 

[Dtekkar]

Any rich civ (arabia (+2 market double lux), russia (horse/iron sales), inca (free roads, fewer workers, and fast infrastructure), etc. can open commerce for Big Ben later on down the road, but few can get the +25% purchasing in time without butchering rationalism. Only poland can complete it without butchering rationalism timings, but the +2 happy per lux is really strong for just about any warmonger. The tree is surprisingly competitive with rationalism if you are struggling with happiness caps and can push the culture through (puppets + cultural city state allies, with 0 available mercantile CSes comes to mind).