Which World Spells are to weak?

[Alsark]

So far I've played as only two different civilizations:

Sheaim (Worldbreak)
Kuritorites (Legends)

Worldbreak - Maybe I didn't like it so much because I'm not a warmonger, but I was expecting like improvements to be destroyed and enemy buildings to be destroyed, or units flat out dying. That wasn't the case (or it didn't seem to be). Even at 100 armageddon timer, it really just damages everybody's units - but only if they're in cities. So, unless you're waiting to attack about five different cities at the same time, I could really only see this world spell becoming useful towards one - or maybe two cities. Meanwhile, the other 50 or so cities that had their units injured by the spell will just be completely recovered within a turn or two.

Legends - Not too bad. It's not really such a huge culture bonus when you think about it in the grand scheme of things. I mean, I believe it gives +400 culture to all of your cities/settlements. If you're on a good culture path, though, you'll probably have a good 200 - 300 culture per turn, anyway, so in your main cultural cities, +400 culture is nothing. It is, however, useful in settlements when you just spam a bunch of settlements (considering they require very little maintenance). So I'm thinking it should maybe be like +600 or +800 for cities, and +400 for settlements.

 

[Polycrates]

And Balseraphs, because it's just too plain.

Dunno whether this would work in practice, but one suggestion I could make for Balseraphs is a world spell that gives them a ridiculous number of events (eg one per turn) for a certain number of turns. It would sort of fit their randomness and I think it could potentially be quite powerful (or quite disastrous)


Also another vote for the Khazad one being too weak.

 

[Sarisin]

Why ask that? Let them vote.

I've started three games (didn't get very far in any for various reasons), and I feel I've seen enough of at least a few of the world spells to provide feedback.

Ask what? My only question was 'how could I vote when I only played one game?' I didn't tell anyone not to vote.

Comments like yours here and in the Bugs thread are what are really unnecessary IMO.

If someone appointed you forum moderator, then fine. Otherwise, I suggest you focus your comments on the game rather than trying to play forum cop.

Merry Christmas, Niilo

 

[Alsark]

Ask what? My only question was 'how could I vote when I only played one game?' I didn't tell anyone not to vote.

Comments like yours here and in the Bugs thread are what are really unnecessary IMO.

If someone appointed you forum moderator, then fine. Otherwise, I suggest you focus your comments on the game rather than trying to play forum cop.

Merry Christmas, Niilo

I think he just misunderstood what you were saying and thought you were being rude to somebody or other, hence why he said that. No biggie - it's the internet, it's sometimes hard to tell what people are saying just by reading some text, eh? So all is well .

 

[jeff_vandenberg]

Most of my Shadow games have been with the Kurios as they are still my favorite civ in FFH, so I will just opine on their spell Legends. It's an Ok spell, but it has never really wowed me. I tend to play a methodical game with the Kurio's in picking out where they will expand to, and never really have much of a chance to settler spam to try to take advantage of Legends. The only time that it really paid off for me was one game where I was in a warlike mood and went stomping on some enemies rather than culture bombing them. I razed the cities and sent in settles behind and then cast Legend to quickly take over the land. Also, with the Kurio's cultural boundaries not expanding as much, that makes the instant land grab nature of the spell more questionable.

I am not sure what to suggest in place of the world spell, perhaps something to do with Cult of the Dragon or something to do with helping them defend their land. Firebreathing for their CotD units.

 

[Alsark]

Most of my Shadow games have been with the Kurios as they are still my favorite civ in FFH, so I will just opine on their spell Legends. It's an Ok spell, but it has never really wowed me. I tend to play a methodical game with the Kurio's in picking out where they will expand to, and never really have much of a chance to settler spam to try to take advantage of Legends. The only time that it really paid off for me was one game where I was in a warlike mood and went stomping on some enemies rather than culture bombing them. I razed the cities and sent in settles behind and then cast Legend to quickly take over the land. Also, with the Kurio's cultural boundaries not expanding as much, that makes the instant land grab nature of the spell more questionable.

I am not sure what to suggest in place of the world spell, perhaps something to do with Cult of the Dragon or something to do with helping them defend their land. Firebreathing for their CotD units.

Well I think at least one civilization having a cultural world spell is nice, so I wouldn't completely strip that away (though it could certainly use a boost). I mean, there are enough war-like civilizations as it is... so having yet another war-like world spell is just a little repetitive.

 

[jeff_vandenberg]

Well I think at least one civilization having a cultural world spell is nice, so I wouldn't completely strip that away (though it could certainly use a boost). I mean, there are enough war-like civilizations as it is... so having yet another war-like world spell is just a little repetitive.

I will grant that point. My comments are largely from playing primarily the kurios, with brief sides of Belseraphs. Thus I don't have the weariness of combat spells. Perhaps the Belseraphs could get a culture augmenting world spells, based on captured slaves and animals.

 

[Darkheart]

I think that pretty much all the World spells (and I haven't seen them all) are best played if they are viewed as a Strategic event that you plan and work towards.

Eg. The Calabim "River of blood" effect would certainly be compounded if used directly after Armageddon (though maybe too late in the game), or even using advanced start to get you 3 cities then casting it on turn 1 (though maybe too early). The best time could be directly after Blight, 10-20 turns after you developed Feudalism (though maybe too middle.)

In the above case, with the Kuriotates, I can imagine a Settler spam followed with Legends, played and timed well, (eg just after a blitz war, or the race to colonize the "New World") being horribly effective, but if Jeff Vandenberg's play style is slow controlled expansion, then using the spell will have a less dramatic effect. (it's not that his play style is wrong OR that the spell is weak).

The Lanun spell (and civ IMHO) are useless on Pangea, but Raging Seas on an Island map is BROKEN!!!

I'd say the Khazad spell is underpowered at higher levels, but at lower skill levels where you can afford more "Slack" take up Slavery and mine everything!.... even the unused spaces between cities, cast it just before you plan to go campaigning and upgrade all your nice 100xp units (acquired from farming/slaving Barbs) to the latest version without trashing your happiness/ production bonus.

Like everything in Civ/FFH it's situational, there is no ONE MASTER STRATEGY, which is why we love the game...and play it again and again.

The only MASTER STRATEGY is TIMING!!!

Im sure someone will shoot me down for posting this!!!

Have a great holiday guys.... Merry Christmas

 

[3141592]

Darkheart, you are right, timing is everything, however some spells when used at the right time are much weaker than other spells used at the right time. For example: martch of the trees is perfect when you are fellowship of the leaves and a huge enemy army has just invaded. It is no exaggeration to say that that spell can save your empire.

Motherload on the other hand, when used on a heavily hilly map with every hill mined can get you, at most, a couple hundred gold, and thats with a big empire. A couple hundred gold will let you upgrade maybe five units. Personally, I know which spell I'd rather have. Also, as you mention motherload is only bad (instead of horrible) on lower skill levels, when all world spells should scale cleanly.

 

[Quetz]

Alright, I'll be the first to say that Hyborem's Whisper is too weak, although I can't vote for it now. Yes it is annoying to lose a city, but if it is used on you, really how hard is it to just decalre war and take it back, since you likely have units in it and Hyborem won't? Not to mention that it will start with about a 10% chance/turn to just revolt back. IMO this spell is worthless, since it starts the city with 0 culture and no units, and usually a crapload of 's for "we yearn to join our motherland!!" = 90 turns to even get an obelisk or something.

I vote for changing it to set Infernal culture to 50% in the city, setting the ring of tiles directly around the city to Infernal 65% culture, and 50% chance of any units in the city converting to Infernal.

An addendum to the spell, it might be interesting if it was only usable on NON-Ashen Veil cities.

 

[jeff_vandenberg]

I think that pretty much all the World spells (and I haven't seen them all) are best played if they are viewed as a Strategic event that you plan and work towards.

In the above case, with the Kuriotates, I can imagine a Settler spam followed with Legends, played and timed well, (eg just after a blitz war, or the race to colonize the "New World") being horribly effective, but if Jeff Vandenberg's play style is slow controlled expansion, then using the spell will have a less dramatic effect. (it's not that his play style is wrong OR that the spell is weak).

True. I haven't played any maps with "New World" territories on them. In such a case I can see the argument for shipping some settlers over to the continent with guards just to acquire all of the fresh resources.

They are something new and I agree that they should be used strategicly as a part of a plan governing a game. I guess perhaps that is a question for World Spells in general: How general should the spells be vs how powerful they are when used. A spell that is very general doesn't have to be greatly powered because it can potentially fit into different strategies for a given civ to play. Where as a spell that is much more niche can potentially offer more power to entice a player to try to follow the specific route required to unleash the spell at maximum effectiveness.

Just some thoughts. I still love the Kuriotates. They get a dragon. Rawr!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I haven't actually played enough games to know for sure (because my laptop broke), but I cant see how the Khazad spell could possibly measure up to the others.

I think that what the Khazad need is more synergy with the mountains. In .25 I added a (RoK) building that, through a python upon the building's completion, caused the peaks in the cities radius to have a random chance to gain a mine/quarry and gold/iron/copper/mithril/gems/marble/shuet stone (I couldn't figure out how to place roads in python for some reason, but I could make it so that roads could be built on peaks and so only dwarven workers could move impassible in order to build them). I think thst this would be much better implemented an empirewide effect of the Khazed Worldspell (along with roads connecting the resources discovered). It certainly beats a meager +10 gold per mine, and would be something that would make you want to wait until you have enough peaks in your territory. I don't even think the name would need changing.



I still don't think that a culture boost is what the Kuriotates need, but I'll wait to make my final decision until after I've played them is Shadow.


I like Hyborem's Wisper from what I've heard (Yet to try it, or even to see Hyborem summmoned in Shadow), but I still think te Infernals need a more impressive start. For on, it would be nice for their cities to start with 6 pop instead of 3. More importantly, I think that the Infernals need a few advanced Starting techs (like Malevolent Designs, Necromancy, Summoning, Soul Debt, Iron Working, possibly Divine Essence, Elementalusm, Sorcery, Divine Right, Warfare, etc. Whatever techs that Demons should already know from their time in hell.) to give them a early game score boost and make their world spell availible at once. That would prevent them from being the ultra-pacifists they tend to be, and would give you an incentive to want to summon him (you could trade for these techs instead oif wasting research).

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

A question about the Clan of Embers worldspell:

does it work on barbarian units produced at AC 90, when the Avatar of Wrath shows up and snatches everyone's units? I'm not thinking of taking the Avatar of Wrath myself, as one unit won't do much no matter how powerful, but 30% of the world's units. Now that's a horde.

 

[Quetz]

On the subject of Infernal's starting, which is a bit off topic (but what the hey): I do think they need some more to get themselves established. IMO Hyborem ought to at least start with the Stigmata promotion and possibly March. I mean, he is weaker even than Mardero..

Anyways I really think they should just lose the "spawn anywhere" mechanic, which never works out well, and just take a city like the Mercurians, even if it meant permement alliance with the one that summoned them.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It only works on Orks. I suspect it would work after Wrath, bu the only units it would give you would eb the ones that you just lost. Also, in the current implementation wrath works by giving out the enraged promotion instead of just converting the units. There isn't one point at which all the units turn barb, and once you get them back theyr would still have the promotion which would turn them barbarian again.


You can wait for Wrath to use the spell, but i isn't really such a good idea.




On the Hyborem issue, I was actually thinking that it would be nice for Hyborem (and maybe also Basium) to start in a vassalage relationship with hi summoner. However, I'm not sure whather he should be the master or the vassal. I'm thinking vassal is probbly best, but he should be quite willing to turn on his master once strong enough.

Maybe Gela, Hyborem's trident, should also have a combat bonus based on the AC like Stigmata does, possibly a llarger bonus. Whosoever wields his trident is a lord of hell, and will be much stronger than anyother unit with a high enough AC. How about a combat bonus of somthing like (AC-25)% instead of (.5*AC)% ? That would make it stronger than Stigmata at a high AC, but make Hyborem weaker if the AC is too low