Why does everyone want Confucianism out?

[Knyx]

This makes about as much sense as saying "they should just combine China and Japan." After all, they are both Asian countries.

In addition to insulting the beliefs of over half the world's population by dismissing them as being the same, this comment shows a complete lack of understanding of these religions and of history. As someone pointed out on this thread before, Hinduism and Budhism arose from the same tradition, does that mean they should just combine them too?

It was a tounge in cheek comment. Although combining them would probably be the greatest thing the world has ever seen, I hold no illusions that it might happen.

Read the Koran. Read the Torah. Read the Bible. The "old testament" (which I'll use since I'm a Christian and don't feel like naming each section per religious text each time I use it) is nearly the exact same for each text.

Differences? The Torah is the text which has the least amount of added books (it refers to the five books, Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy). The Koran is essentially a Torah with Muhammad. The Bible has the new testament.

So blatant differences? (granted I haven't studied smaller differences, so forgive me if this is off)
-The Koran has Muhammad
-The Bible has the new testament
-The Torah has neither

The biggest problem is all three religions denounce each other, making it impossible for them to peacefully coexist. I don't mean that they inspire violence which is another topic, but that the disciples of the religion are not able to coexist as easily as say, a christian family and another christian family. There will always be that gap there. I believe it is Deuteronomy where in each religious text it says something to the effect of "thou shall have no other God but me and will shun those who worship false idols." Meaning, an Islam person if they read this literally, is required to shun a Christian, and vice versa.

Anyways this is silly post to spend ten minutes on.

 

[warpus]

It was a tounge in cheek comment. Although combining them would probably be the greatest thing the world has ever seen, I hold no illusions that it might happen.

Read the Koran. Read the Torah. Read the Bible. The "old testament" (which I'll use since I'm a Christian and don't feel like naming each section per religious text each time I use it) is nearly the exact same for each text.

Differences? The Torah is the text which has the least amount of added books (it refers to the five books, Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy). The Koran is essentially a Torah with Muhammad. The Bible has the new testament.

So blatant differences? (granted I haven't studied smaller differences, so forgive me if this is off)
-The Koran has Muhammad
-The Bible has the new testament
-The Torah has neither

The biggest problem is all three religions denounce each other, making it impossible for them to peacefully coexist. I don't mean that they inspire violence which is another topic, but that the disciples of the religion are not able to coexist as easily as say, a christian family and another christian family. There will always be that gap there. I believe it is Deuteronomy where in each religious text it says something to the effect of "thou shall have no other God but me and will shun those who worship false idols." Meaning, an Islam person if they read this literally, is required to shun a Christian, and vice versa.

Anyways this is silly post to spend ten minutes on.

christians, muslims, and jews worship the same god.

 

[neriana]

The biggest problem is all three religions denounce each other, making it impossible for them to peacefully coexist. I don't mean that they inspire violence which is another topic, but that the disciples of the religion are not able to coexist as easily as say, a christian family and another christian family. There will always be that gap there. I believe it is Deuteronomy where in each religious text it says something to the effect of "thou shall have no other God but me and will shun those who worship false idols." Meaning, an Islam person if they read this literally, is required to shun a Christian, and vice versa.

Skimming over the point of how "wonderfully" Christians of different denominations have treated each other throught history...

Muslims recognize (or are supposed to recognize, according to the Koran), that Christians and Jews worship precisely the same god they do, by a different name. They are not allowed to declare jihad against "people of the Book" -- of the Old Testament. Muslims are specifically instructed to treat Jews and Christians as sharing virtually the same faith. The "people of the Book" are not to be treated as infidels.

Would you want all of Christianity to be accused of all the crimes people have perpetrated in its name and against its core teachings? Islam has the same core teachings as Judaism and Christianity: peace, love thy neighbor, etc., and unlike Christianity, it explicitly acknowledges its debt to its sister religions and embraces the people who follow them.

 

[ahsingjai]

Confucianism promotes Ancestry Worship which IS a religion. so stfu.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

christians, muslims, and jews worship the same god.

However all of them would maintain that worshipping a false idea of that God is just as bad as worshipping a different God. (like when a doting aunt gets you stupid sweaters that you hate for your birthday...once you've explained to her that you don't want them, but you want something else, if she continues giving them to you then she really doesn't care about you but some image of you she has in her head, that she is not willing to reconcile with the real you)

All three claim that the others are maintaining their own picture of this God they all claim to worship such that they are not Really worshipping the same god. (If I claim to support John Kerry as President, and then claim that he is a Republican, I'm not supporting the same John Kerry that other people are...because I'm not supporting the real John Kerry)


The concepts of God in the three religions are similar (more so than any of them and Hinduism for example) but not the same. And only one conception of God could match with reality (there's enough fundamental differences between all three's current conceptions that they could not all properly describe the same being)

And back to topic, I'd agree with ahsingjai (or at least the first part of his sentence)

 

[calyth]

Funny how the start of this thread means people don't read manuals.
They've already commented that they're game designers, not theologicians, and frankly all religion has the same buildings and same effects. Go ahead, mod Confucianism out and replace it with something else.
Buddism doesn't have a god in the traditional sense. AFAIK, as you reincarnate, hopefully you eventually achieve the state of being a buddha. AFAIK, Hinduism have many gods, and that doesn't jive with "traditional" sense of religion where there's one god and stuff.

Face it, it was a game play element. If you don't like it, mod it out.

 

[onedreamer]

The reason many people want to get rid of confusianism is because in a sence it's not a religion. They dont worship anything. it's just guidelines on how a person should act and live. It doesnt say there is a god, and it doesnt say there is not a god. it's just how a person should act. (forgive me if i am wrong, thats just what i learned in school)

Your last sentence means that Confucianism IS a religion like all others. Apart from the fact that with my VERY little knowledge of oriental religions I think to remember that Taoism could be considered a Philosophy as well, if you reason like that (and it's even discovered by the Tech Philosophy ); anyways Organized Religions are exactly what you described: a means to control people behaviours. This is how Scipio (I think) described the Roman religion. Also, a Religion by definition hardly equals the worship of one or many individuals, but rather a protocol of behaviour that may or many not include the act of worshipping something.

 

[john10235]

Confucianism promotes Ancestry Worship which IS a religion. so stfu.

Ancestry worship does NOT necessarily means a religion. The intention of the so-called "worship" is to remember your ancestors. The people they "worship" did exist in the past. Take a look on the definition of "worship" in Merriam-Webster Online:

worship (v.): to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power

The ancestors are NOT "divine beings" or "supernatural powers".

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The most accepted definition of "religion" is "any specific system of belief about deity, often involving rituals, a code of ethics, a philosophy of life, and a worldview."

This sentence, when rewritted according with logic, means:
"If something does not have any specific system of belief about deity, it is NOT a religion."
"Something involving rituals, a code of ethics, a philosophy of life, or a worldview, or any mixture of these components, does NOT necessarily means a religion, although it is often the case."

In all famous books about Confucianism, including the "Four Books" and the "Five Classics" (四書五&#32147, not even a single sentence to define any "divine beings" or "supernatural powers" appears. This shows that Confucianism is actually agnostic, and therefore should NOT be considered as a religion.

P.S. I am a "Secondary 6 student" in Hong Kong, which is somewhat equivalent to Grade 12 in Western countries. I studys Chinese Language and Culture in school, which includes some very deep and detailed descriptions about Confucianism.

 

[ahsingjai]

Ancestry worship does NOT necessarily means a religion. The intention of the so-called "worship" is to remember your ancestors. The people they "worship" did exist in the past. Take a look on the definition of "worship" in Merriam-Webster Online:

worship (v.): to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power

The ancestors are NOT "divine beings" or "supernatural powers".

Um, are you someone that is a expert or a idiot?

"ancestors" are dead spirits either in Heaven or in Hell. There are rituals to burn incense and give them food and afterlife money so they can pay off guides to guide them in the right path. Burning incense for ancestors to watch over the living. Which means they do have supernatural powers.

Also, ancestor worship isn't limited to just ancestors. People also burn incense to gods and respectable figures of the past.

Like Guan Gong. One of the past Chinese Generals who was marked as divined and became our God of War. Also Guardian of Business and money.

 

[john10235]

Um, are you someone that is a expert or a idiot?

"ancestors" are dead spirits either in Heaven or in Hell. There are rituals to burn incense and give them food and afterlife money so they can pay off guides to guide them in the right path. Burning incense for ancestors to watch over the living. Which means they do have supernatural powers.

Also, ancestor worship isn't limited to just ancestors. People also burn incense to gods and respectable figures of the past.

Like Guan Gong. One of the past Chinese Generals who was marked as divined and became our God of War. Also Guardian of Business and money.

Please do not mix Confucianism with common traditions among the Chinese people.

Burning incense for ancestors is just a common ritual among the common people in China, NOT described in any books of Confucianism. What Confucius said about "mourn for the ancestors" does not include burning incense or presenting food.

Confucius just described something called "Three Years of Mourning". When one's parents (particularly father) die(s), he/she should stay with the tomb for three years, in order to "pay back" the first three years of rearing.

 

[ahsingjai]

Please do not mix Confucianism with common traditions among the Chinese people.

Burning incense for ancestors is just a common ritual among the common people in China, NOT described in any books of Confucianism. What Confucius said about "mourn for the ancestors" does not include burning incense or presenting food.

Confucius just described something called "Three Years of Mourning". When one's parents (particularly father) die(s), he/she should stay with the tomb for three years, in order to "pay back" the first three years of rearing.

Confucius did not start Confucianism. The people did. And they use ancestry worship with it.

 

[Smidlee]

There are two subjects that start threads like these, politics and religion. This thread is evidence enough Confucianism is a religious belief. If it wasn't, people wouldn't get so touchy over the subject. I doubt you could classify confucianism as politics so that leaves religion. To me confucianism sounds like another one of those do-gooder types of religions.

 

[john10235]

Confucius did not start Confucianism. The people did. And they use ancestry worship with it.

Did the books about Confucianism (with the most significant "The Four Books and the Five Classics") stated anything that "burning incense, presenting food, wishing the 'spirits' to bring them good fortune are some necessary components of ancestry worship??! NO.

Also, besides Confucius, all the other famous Confucians avoided discussing about ghosts or gods, or mentioned that they do not exist or they are not important whether they exist or not. These all conclude that Confucianism is either atheist or agnostic.

 

[Smidlee]

You could also claim Sadduces in the new testament was extremely close to atheism/agnostic. Just because someone doesn't beleive in God doesn't mean they aren't religious. There are atheists who's just as preachy about theie beliefs as any theist is. It's not hard to find them on christians forums.

 

[john10235]

There are two subjects that start threads like these, politics and religion. This thread is evidence enough Confucianism is a religious belief. If it wasn't, people wouldn't get so touchy over the subject. I doubt you could classify confucianism as politics so that leaves religion. To me confucianism sounds like another one of those do-gooder types of religions.

We are not seperating the "politics" or "religions" aspects or anything.

We must first define religion. Although much debate is still in progress, the most accepted definition is "a specific system of belief about deity/god/ultimate reality/divine beings/supernatural powers".

Then, we look for the codes of confucianism to see if there are any descriptions relevant to the definiton, and judge whether those statements indicate that Confucianism acknowleged the existence of deity/god etc.

 

[john10235]

A website about religions might prove to be useful to us:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

 

[Smidlee]

I know all about the culture war going on here in America. There's a reason why there's a agrument defining religion poltical. If you can claim your beliefs isn't religious while someone else beleifs are religous then you have power to quiet those you disagree with publicly while having free reign to preach your beliefs anywhere.
So the fighting over definition of religion is a political battle.

 

[john10235]

I know all about the curture war going on here in America. There's a reason why there's a agrument defining religion poltical. If you can claim your beliefs isn't religious while someone else beleifs are religous then you have power to quiet those you disagree with publicly while having free reign to preach your beliefs anywhere.
So the fighting over definition of religion is a political battle.

Even when the definition is fixed, whether Confucianism is a religion is still under investigation. But most Chinese experts, in the past or at present, generally deny Confucianism as a religion.

 

[spankey]

There are two subjects that start threads like these, politics and religion. This thread is evidence enough Confucianism is a religious belief. If it wasn't, people wouldn't get so touchy over the subject. I doubt you could classify confucianism as politics so that leaves religion. To me confucianism sounds like another one of those do-gooder types of religions.

I agree. The designers determined that 7 religions was the optimal number for game play. They then based what 7 they would be on population numbers/practioners/adherents and their effect upon history. It looks like it is easy to change by modding if it freaks you out enough.

I enjoy this forum as it is one of international flavor yet still in english (for me, my mother tongue). But I do not enjoy the many posters (many of them in their youth) who have the smug belief that they know all and believe that those of any faith (regardless of what) are rubes or boobs or intellectually deficient individuals. These people tend to have replaced religion with something that might as well be called religion-- a worship of the government, of the environment, of animals and plantlife. Most of these people believe that if we would only listen to them and implement their ideas, that humans could be perfected and life would be without conflict or evil. Most religious people believe the opposite--that humans are born deficient/flawed/in sin and there can be no perfection on earth. Unfortunately, religious people are still people, and are prone to mistakes. Many non-religious then attack by showing that these people are making mistakes, hypocrisy, etc.
Basically, religious people have beliefs, but non religious people have a faith that is synonomous to religion and a belief just as intense as religious fervor.

 

[john10235]

Maybe the easiest solution for Sid is just to replace all the words "Religions" in CIV with "Religions/Philosophies"...