Why I hate enemy caravels

[qemist]

It's grossly unrealistic when you consider some guys on a trireme having nothing but some arrows and maybe a few swordsmen can destroy tanks sitting on a transport.

What is the relevance of the cargo? tanks are just so much very heavy ballast on a transport. If the trireme has a ram that can hole the transport it may not be unrealistic. A transport loaded with tanks sinks real well.

..or a helicopter.

I can't fathom why helicopters can't fly over water.

 

[Callonia]

It's grossly unrealistic when you consider some guys on a trireme having nothing but some arrows and maybe a few swordsmen can destroy tanks sitting on a transport.


...or a helicopter. Ugh. Happened to me once. AI had built a trireme and a caravel on a lake (one turn before I was going to take their capital), and I accidentally moved a helicopter onto it. Ugh. It's just as realistic as a half-strength assault helicopter unit getting destroyed by a cannon barrage or a bomber actually being blown out of the sky by a late 1800s era cannon.

Know what's more unrealistic than that?

That your civilization somehow speeds past all other's civilization in tech progress. Skipping past the medieval tech so fast right into fielding nothing but riflemen to school the medieval era civilizations you face. Boy now that's super unrealistic.

 

[qemist]

That your civilization somehow speeds past all other's civilization in tech progress. Skipping past the medieval tech so fast right into fielding nothing but riflemen to school the medieval era civilizations you face. Boy now that's super unrealistic.

Why? did the Americans and Australians have guns too when the Europeans arrived?

 

[Dralix]

Every land unit being able to insta-build a single transport of exactly the right size wherever it may be is a little [unrealistic].

What if they insta-built a train, or some type of truck instead? Would that be unrealistic?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Being forced to build a token navy to escort an invasion force isn't unreasonable even against caravels. A few destroyers will sweep the seas of them in a few turns.

So if your going to invade, yes, I would expect you would have to escort the invasion force. If not, and your troops get sunk, even by triremes, tough, your out of luck.

As far as the lack of transport ships, I didn't think I would like it at first. But I do. It just eliminates one more unit that's only used in very limited circumstances that ends up cluttering up production, supply, and keeping track of where/when it is for an invasion. I applaud whomever came up the transport rule we're now using. And this is coming from a micromanagement freak.

Yeah, I thought I would dislike it. I thought it would be immersion-breaking and would blend land and sea too much. I'm pleased to say I think I was entirely wrong there. A clear change for the better, imo.

 

[ViterboKnight]

I wish naval units could be moved over land units like in Civ 4, or if they auto attacked approaching enemy naval units. Sometimes those caravels seem to come out of no where .

IMO, one of the most annoying things is when you embark a unit and use three or four ships to escort it. 4 ships for 1 embarked should be quite enough. Well, another enemy unit will ALWAYS magically appear, evade all the escort and get the embarked one.
Annoying!!!

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think ZOC for ships would be nice. I think there's always some degree of risk in ocean voyages, but it would be nice to mitigate it slightly.

 

[Agamemnus]

I can't fathom why helicopters can't fly over water.

They need to refuel! Tanks can just refuel in the middle of the desert with no supply truck, but helicopters can't refuel on water. That's just crazy-talk.

 

[Peng Qi]

Anyway, imho there is no sense when caravel (sailing ship) scuttles a motor ship. The motor ship can easily avoid this.

They could assume that industrial/modern transport (after discovery of engine) ships are armed somehow and able to defend against obsolete units (or, for example: +25% chance of retrait after steam power, +50% chance of retrait after combustion, vs obsolete ofc -- move spent on retrait would be already consumed in the next turn).

The attached image begs to differ.

Nobody would complain if the Trireme model was replaced with a speedboat w/pirates model or the Caravel model was replaced with commandos in pontoon boats, so from a mechanical standpoint there's no problem. It's just a realism argument, and I don't see changes to core gameplay as being necessary to solve it.

 

[dexters]

The attached image begs to differ.

Nobody would complain if the Trireme model was replaced with a speedboat w/pirates model or the Caravel model was replaced with commandos in pontoon boats, so from a mechanical standpoint there's no problem. It's just a realism argument, and I don't see changes to core gameplay as being necessary to solve it.

it's assumed the outdated unit you have automatically get 'better weapons' as you advance through the ages, so your unupgraded trireme isn't realy a trireme by the modern era, since you are paying, easily, hundreds of gold in maintenance to support that unit. I often hear this and it makes sense,

Playing Civ is about using a certian amount of abstraction and imagination.

All this is asking for is more art assets. And even if they scraped the resources to do it The next things we would be arguing about is that speed boats shouldn't be able to deal damage to destroyers or sink embarked units of a certain type due to size or whatever. It's not going to end.

 

[drubell]

I hated them in the last game I played because I was making an early rush on Polynesia and he had a caravel sitting in a lake right next to his capital. It gave me less area for me to fight him in and the extra bombardment from his caravel really sucked.

 

[qemist]

The attached image begs to differ.

Nobody would complain if the Trireme model was replaced with a speedboat w/pirates model or the Caravel model was replaced with commandos in pontoon boats, so from a mechanical standpoint there's no problem. It's just a realism argument, and I don't see changes to core gameplay as being necessary to solve it.

What's unrealistic about caravels sinking transport boats with motors? Not every boat with a motor is the Titanic.

it's assumed the outdated unit you have automatically get 'better weapons' as you advance through the ages, so your unupgraded trireme isn't realy a trireme by the modern era, since you are paying, easily, hundreds of gold in maintenance to support that unit. I often hear this and it makes sense,

Playing Civ is about using a certian amount of abstraction and imagination.

That was for book readers. This is the 21st century you know. People expect someone else to do the imagining for them then draw cute pictures of it for them.

All this is asking for is more art assets. And even if they scraped the resources to do it The next things we would be arguing about is that speed boats shouldn't be able to deal damage to destroyers or sink embarked units of a certain type due to size or whatever.

That wouldn't surprise me. Most of the posters here have probably never heard of the USS Cole.

 

[Raethwyn]

Triremes and other Galley style ships were in use until the 18th century, although by then they were relegated to minor roles after being replaced by larger broadside sailing ships. By the 15th century, war galleys were heavily armed with cannons and had advanced rigging. Galleys were used to try and break Napoleon's siege of Valetta in 1798, though they failed.

In Civ terms, this information currently has no impact. If it did then as your tech level increased, your Triremes would increase in speed and strength slightly. I'd be happy if they increased in stats, but also in cost as you gained new sailing and gunpowder techs. Of course they would never be able to win against Destroyers, although they would still be a threat to lightly armed transport ships without escort.

 

[Agamemnus]

That wouldn't surprise me. Most of the posters here have probably never heard of the USS Cole.

That's a little different...

 

[ShahJahanII]

It irks me that caravels can easily destroy embarked GDRs.

 

[Agamemnus]

It irks me that caravels can easily destroy embarked GDRs.

Well, that one actually makes sense. I suppose they all get powered down when they go on the transport. If the caravel guys make a TINY hole in the transport the whole thing sinks because of the massive weight of the GDR...

 

[ShahJahanII]

Well, that one actually makes sense. I suppose they all get powered down when they go on the transport. If the caravel guys make a TINY hole in the transport the whole thing sinks because of the massive weight of the GDR...

You took it too literally.
My point is, the huge tech difference should mean caravels have no effect on any
higher tier embarked unit.

 

[Louis XXIV]

But the unit isn't in issue, it's the boat the unit is in. Transport units are generally unarmed.

 

[Ranos]

You took it too literally.
My point is, the huge tech difference should mean caravels have no effect on any
higher tier embarked unit.

Do you think a caravel could sink a cruise ship? I would say yes. What about a cargo ship? It would take more work but again the answer is yes. Most ships, except military vessels, have no more than small arms on board. They are going to be easy pray for a military vessel, even one that is hundreds of years old.

 

[Blue Oyster]

There is no distinction made between ocean-going troop transports, and small craft for actual amphibious landings, such as canoes or Higgins boats. I wouldn't enjoy having to disembark troops to reload them onto smaller landing craft. So I'm sanguine about low-tech military craft sinking any transports. Any non-military vessel can be taken by a Zodiac full of guys with hand-held weapons.