Workers of the world, unite! [RFC RAND]

[BurnEmDown]

Josus, you mentioned our knights will get experience from destroying Hattusas, but can we even build knights? I don't think we'll get them by 1300 which is a shame, they're really useful against janissaries (should Turkey declare war).

 

[Jusos2108]

Josus, you mentioned our knights will get experience from destroying Hattusas, but can we even build knights? I don't think we'll get them by 1300 which is a shame, they're really useful against janissaries (should Turkey declare war).

Well we need three spies to be in Amsterdam five turns (stationary spy bonus) before our Great Spy gets there to steal guilds for knights. So if we carefully speed up the spy with an occasional engineer or/and scientist, I think we can get knights before Turkey spawns.

EDIT: I would build a galley in St Petersburg fill it with spies and go to search for Amsterdam. The spies can stay there when the galley goes back to fetch the Great Spy. Meanwhile we can build another spy to accompany the great Spy.

 

[BurnEmDown]

So worst case scenario: The Dutch started on the British Isles which are disconnected from the mainland by ocean.

 

[nody]

About Guilds: My Russia strategy in normal RFC is normally to research fishing, sailing, meditation and then: Civil Service.

I then use Civil Service to first trade Engineering from the Dutch and later Guilds from the Portuguese. Of course I had to research 25% of those techs each before they would trade it.
(Civil Service is only worth around 1000 tech points, as E and G are both worth around 1300 points.)

Of course I was always Christian, same as Joao and Willem.
And they never traded those techs right away in first contact anyway.

 

[Jusos2108]

Well you can get them for free (or 1GP) by stealing, those espionage points will give guilds, divine right if we want it and/or gunpowder, dutch sometimes goes for it first. Anyways we get at least 3 techs after focusing our spying on them.

 

[nody]

Does stealing a tech cost less if you already researched some of it?

Maybe we can steal Engineering also if we have a couple of 'normal spy waiting in city'-points.

 

[Jusos2108]

IIRC the cost remains the same.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I still say that stealing from the Turks is probably best in this map...simply because of the distance. They spawn with E, G, DR, Gunpowder, Civil Service...everything we need. Stealing from a close civ is cheaper. Spies should be sent close to home...because eventually they all return to Moscow. The Great Spy can go map some more when it spawns even if Turkey isn't there yet, and we can always research other stuff like Compass first.
And btw, a warrior is always my food of choice for the plague, before we hook up any metal. Great for filling up after whips or letting cities grow before building workers.

 

[Jusos2108]

I doubt the Netherlands will be too far away for the distance penalty to be meaningful, but stealing from Turkey also works fine for me. Although then we need to raze Hattusas with other means than knights, but since it is full axemen horse archers and catapults accompanied by couple defending longbowmen will do just fine.

 

[nody]

The Great Spy can go map some more when it spawns even if Turkey isn't there yet

Can't barbarians attack a Great Spy?

 

[BurnEmDown]

Edit to nody: No, since no one can see your great spy I think, like a regular spy.

Just make sure the GS won't flip to anyone if he's exploring.

 

[Danger Bird]

I would build a galley in St Petersburg fill it with spies and go to search for Amsterdam. The spies can stay there when the galley goes back to fetch the Great Spy. Meanwhile we can build another spy to accompany the great Spy.

This will take too long, I think:
- 8 turns to get a spy from Moskva to a galley on the Baltic, then ? turns to find Amsterdam; OR could build a spy in Kiev next turn by sacrificing 2 pop: then 5 turns + ? turns (can't build the spy in Petersburg becuse it will be pop rushing a galley)
- first spy (the Kiev one) won't be in Amsterdam till, at best, 1160 (if ? = 5 turns)
- then back for the Great Spy (and another spy), they arrive in Amsterdam in 1260
This is BEST CASE, and to do that we would have to dilute the GP pool in Moskva considerably, so we may not even have a GS. So, this makes another reason Turkey may be better than Netherlands as an espionage target:

 

[Danger Bird]

So, what I think I'll do...
(and a few questions)

- train spies (1 or more) for stealing techs.

(Q: Why do we need more than 1? It can go back to steal more.)​

- speed up the Great Spy a bit by adding in the occasional engineer or scientist; it will take 25 turns (beyond 1300) without help.

(Q: Is everyone ok with this, if we have a ~90% chance at GS?)​

(Q: For the diluting, I like science specialists at this point, over engineers. The only wonder we could build soon that is worth much to us is Spiral Minaret - and I think Academy is more useful. Thoughts?)​

- train units (2 or 3 catapults, perhaps swordsmen) to join existing forces and raze Hattusas - which probably won't happen on my watch.
- maybe a few more 'plague warriors'
- work the land, build a road network.
- continue building forges, libraries, maybe markets in cities.
- explore, especially to the east.

 

[Jusos2108]

I didn't say it would be easy.

But like I said Turkey is fine too and your actions will pretty much determing the outcome. BTW, when can we expect an update from you Danger Bird?

 

[Jusos2108]

We can manage with one spy for starters. IMO the risk of a another GP is worth taking. You might be better off training horse archers, because the barb axemen will eat swordmen alive. After the army is trained we need settlers, though cities must be able to work the fat cross (libraries). Otherwise sounds great!

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Actually, more spies later on is fine. Initially 1-2 will do. The advantage of having more is that you'll save time on the 50% bonus sitting the spies there and thus you'll steal techs quicker, but spies are expensive early on.
Another gambit would be to give a city to China (say, Hattusas) and since they are very advanced, use up all our spy points by 1280 on them (paper, civil service, engineering, drama, literature). That would mean at least 4-5 spies.

 

[BurnEmDown]

I like alternating between 2 spies, so that if it takes 5 turns to get to a city and 5 turns to wait there, when one spy just got to a city the other just stole a tech.

 

[Danger Bird]

Ok, thanks for the input.

I'll be starting my turns soon, and should have a report for you within 24h.

Edit:

You might be better off training horse archers, because the barb axemen will eat swordmen alive.

Yes, of course, horse archers for Hattusas. Don't know what I was thinking.

Another gambit would be to give a city to China (say, Hattusas) and since they are very advanced, use up all our spy points by 1280 on them (paper, civil service, engineering, drama, literature). That would mean at least 4-5 spies.

If it looks like we might be able to have enough spies in time, I'll keep Hattusas and leave this option open to the next player.

 

[micbic]

Just setting the first RPC-style restriction: No Defensive Pacts. Only Vassals.

 

[Danger Bird]

After the tumultuous times of Nicolai and his nephew Piotr, the late 11th and early 12th centuries were a time of peaceful, even boring, development. Thus the leaders' names are not recorded.

1060
Cancel road construction 1E of Moskva, to help with road to Novgorod. Move 1st Horsemen towards Novgorod. (Press Enter.)

1070
Start repositioning forces for defence and for upcoming Hattusas campaign. Workers working.

1080
Moskva: Library > Confucian Monastery.
Vikings cancel their tribute, won't give any more. Chinese have spread Confucianism in Kiev. Hurry Library in Kiev for 3 pop.

1090
Kiev: Library > (queued) Forge.
Eastern Horsemen (now healed), resume exploring, find a nice city site. Since it is our only iron (save for that in the wastes N of Peterburg), we should prioritise this for after Mongols spawn. Road to Novgorod complete.



1100
Moskva: Confucian Monastery > Market.
Leaning Tower built in a faraway land. Lose contact with Vikings.

1110
Working, moving, exploring, developing a taste for vodka.

1120
Kiev borders expand to BFC. Recontact Vikings, lose Japan.
Slip warrior and catapult into Moskva queue ahead of market, put warrior ahead of archer in Novgorod queue. (Kiev and Novgorod copper mines will be up soon.)

1130
Moskva: Warrior > Catapult.
Novgorod: Warrior > (back to) Archer.

1140
Recontact Khmer, get 20g in tribute. Kiev copper mine operational.


1150
Moskva: Catapult > Spy (ahead of market).
Novgorod borders expand to BFC, Moskva borders to 3 tiles. 2 million Russians. Novgorod copper mine operational. (Now if we had trade routes, ...)
Worried a little at what Khmer elephants are up to. Eastern Horsemen hit a wall, turn back south to meet Mongols.



1160
Moskva: Spy > (back to) Market (which is hurried).
Add longbow to Kiev queue ahead of forge.
Add galley to queue in Peterburg, between library (next turn) and work boat. Reason is that the workboat would finish too soon with upcoming forest chop.
Start working pigs SE of Novgorod, under cover of friendly Khmer elephants. (Still need to be very careful of barbarians around Novgorod, so) Put horse archer in queue ahead of forge, hurry it to get rid of extra pop.
1st Horsemen are on a recon mission NW of Hattusas, but the wily Khazars have sent out axemen to check my approach. Could attack with 88% odds, but would gain no experience, so retreat - when the axemen get closer the charioteers can nab them.


Where we stand:

• When the longbow is done in Kiev, and a cat each from Moskva/Kiev, I think we can start our advance on Hattusas (with 4 horse archers, chariot, 3 catapults, CR swordsman, longbow).
• A Chinese Confucian missionary is making his way to Peterburg, our last pagan holdout, so we should think about converting. Although that might diminish trade chances (as Jusos said), we have no trade now anyway.
• The GS in Moskva is 14 turns away at 83% (I sped it up with one scientist for one turn). Perhaps should be sped up once more but then the % lowers. The galley in Peterburg leaves open the option of spying on Europeans.

Below, screenshots of our glorious cities.

Spoiler :