(2-31a) Remove Scouting Units' Penalty VS. Barbarians

[Recursive]

Counterproposal to: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-scouts-at-fishing-instead-of-sailing.680666/

With the increased spawn rates of Barbarians, I think this penalty has become unfun. Also, the AI gets their Pathfinders killed easily when there's too many barbs running around, which is part of why I had to nerf their spawn rates.

Scouts are already weaker than your average military unit anyway.

 

[CrazyG]

I always thought that warriors having a bonus and pathfinders having a penalty seemed redundant.

 

[Stalker0]

Seems reasonable to me, they are quite squishy in the new paradigm.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Yes please.

 

[Voremonger]

Just run away? I don't play with ancient ruins but as it is I find an early scout with survivalism to be extremely strong. My intuition is that people are greedy and take survivalism rather than trailblazer and end up losing their units due to ZOC.

 

[Stalker0]

My intuition is that people are greedy and take survivalism rather than trailblazer and end up losing their units due to ZOC.

I think its the opposite. People take TB for the much faster speed and then don't have the defense to take some barb hits.

 

[Voremonger]

I think its the opposite. People take TB for the much faster speed and then don't have the defense to take some barb hits.

My experience is that pathfinders die way more often with survivalism 2 than with trailblazer 2. You can't tank too many hits even with survivalism so it's better to not get hit at all.

 

[ma_kuh]

Recon promotions are in a weird place. I feel like on paper, they're well structured and make sense, but in practice it's just so all over. I want to run fast because otherwise I'm slow, but then I just get into trouble so I want defense, but then I'm halfway in two trees so I get vision and movement slower, and then I can never get medic, and gods forbid this unit die because I'll never get these promotions back since I've explored the continent already.

Trailblazer feels like the only choice for ranks 2 and 3, honestly, unless I'm trying to be cute with Polynesia, and even then it feels like it doesn't pan out all the time.

 

[CppMaster]

I feel like on paper, they're well structured and make sense, but in practice it's just so all over. I want to run fast because otherwise I'm slow, but then I just get into trouble so I want defense, but then I'm halfway in two trees so I get vision and movement slower, and then I can never get medic, and gods forbid this unit die because I'll never get these promotions back since I've explored the continent already.

Isn't that a good balance, though? That you want both movement and defence and have to actually choose, unlike promotions for submarines?

 

[ma_kuh]

It wasn't so much that each piece was important and strained your decision making, it was more like every one of the components feels like you need it to enable the others, so the unit only "works" at level 6+, and you only get a limited number of those easily. And again, if it dies, you basically can't replace it in value ever.

I haven't felt good going survivalist first yet, and I've been trying to try it in more of my games recently. I want to prioritize the T3 pillaging talent, but without the movement it's just not very good, so it still feels like you need speed first or the class doesn't work. I'm hopeful the proposal from last session that is yet to be implemented might help, giving the pathfinder 3 movement baseline and normalizing the movement a bit. You also get ZOC baseline (if I recall correctly), so you're not locked into one line just for that. But who knows.

I'd also say, as much as I'm complaining about it, the unit is probably fine with or without making it better vs. barbarians. I'd probably try more two-pathfinder openings to support archer camp-hunting in place of a second warrior with this change. I don't know if that's good or bad in the grand scheme of things.

 

[CppMaster]

it was more like every one of the components feels like you need it to enable the others, so the unit only "works" at level 6+

The unit works since level 1. The main function is to scout and it does it well with ignoring terrain. It's just that these promotions makes the unit so much better with them. Maybe these promotions are OP and the base unit is too weak, if promotions are so essential.

 

[Stalker0]

To me, TB is the standard for the initial scout, but there are exceptions. Sometimes I get absolutely swarmed with barbs, and so I will go survivalism and use my pathfinder to hold a key spot. Survivalism also gets much more useful for later recon units so its by no means useless. hehe heck I use it more than I do barrage

 

[Tekamthi]

/agree it should be removed... beyond gameplay reasons, it doesn't make any sense, thematically

the vs barbarian malus would be more interesting as a temporary "plague" style promo applied via espionage, in conjunction with inciting uprising etc.

 

[alchx]

My experience is that pathfinders die way more often with survivalism 2 than with trailblazer 2. You can't tank too many hits even with survivalism so it's better to not get hit at all.

Pathfinders with survivalism really good in protecting your own territory agains barbarians. Just put it on a valuable tile and the initial barbarians will not be able to block it from being worked by the city. You can even hunt barbarian camps with the Slinger.

 

[Recursive]

I sponsor this.

Proposal sponsored by Recursive.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.