[Vote] (6-07) Amphitheater/Gallery/Opera House Gold and Maintenance Adjustment Proposals

[Stalker0]

(6-07) Increase Amphitheater/Gallery/Opera House Bonus to Guilds​

(6-09) Increase Amphitheater/Gallery/Opera House Bonus to Guilds

Currently the Amphitheater/Gallery Opera House each give +1 :c5gold: Gold to all Writers/Artists/Musicians Guilds on Empire, respectively. You can have up to 3 of each guild on empire, so this translates to 3 :c5gold: per building Problem: Gallery and Opera House both cost -4 :c5gold: building...

forums.civfanatics.com

Currently the Amphitheater/Gallery Opera House each give +1 Gold to all Writers/Artists/Musicians Guilds on Empire, respectively. You can have up to 3 of each guild on empire, so this translates to 3 per building

Rationale
Gallery and Opera House both cost -4 building maintenance per turn, so these two buildings are actually a net loss of -1 GPT if you have all the guilds built. This is a weird situation, and it makes me question why this bonus exists if all it does is offset the cost of the building slightly.

Proposal:
Increase the bonus to on these three buildings to +2 Gold to their respective Guilds on empire

(6-07a) Remove Maintenance and Per-Guild Gold Bonuses from Amphitheater/Opera House/Gallery​

(6-09a) Remove Maintenance and Per-Guild Gold Bonuses from Amphitheater/Opera House/Gallery

Counterproposal to: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-11-increase-amphitheater-gallery-opera-house-bonus-to-guilds.685826/ Current: Amphitheater: 1 maintenance. All writer's guilds produce 1 gold. Opera House: 4 maintenance. All artist's guilds produce 1 gold. Gallery: 4 maintenances...

forums.civfanatics.com

Current:

• Amphitheater: 1 maintenance. All writer's guilds produce 1 gold.
• Opera House: 4 maintenance. All artist's guilds produce 1 gold.
• Gallery: 4 maintenances. All musician's guilds produce 1 gold.

Proposal: Remove all gold bonus "per guild" that exist on the Amphitheatre, Opera House, and Gallery and reduce their maintenance to 0.

Rationale: I don't build these buildings for gold, the gold bonus is basically just offsetting the maintenance cost of these buildings to begin with. Any gold you make is simply yield bloat, and has no bearing on when I build the building. Its simpler and cleaner to just remove both the maintenance and the gold bonuses. Let them be maintenance free buildings that do their job: simple, clean, easy.

 

[hokath]

I am not such a fan of 6-07a because I imagine the large gold boost the guild provides interacts with trade routes (and happiness) in those cities.
However...
I'm not sure if that's actually true. Would someone enlighten me (or test) if trade route value sees the +gold from guilds?

 

[Rekk]

Positive Gold with Maintenance is stronger than 0 Gold and 0 Maintenance, because the former interacts with Poverty and Gold Scalers (including GM Trade Mission if this session's relevant proposals pass).

Trade Routes also benefit from Gold but ignore Maintenance.

 

[pineappledan]

Proposal 6-07 is also stronger than 6-07a strictly in terms of raw . It would mean Amphitheaters give a net +5 on empire, and Opera/Gallery give a net +2 on empire, before factoring in the potential %modifiers, building maintenance reductions, trade, and Needs implications.

 

[pineappledan]

Rationale: I don't build these buildings for gold, the gold bonus is basically just offsetting the maintenance cost of these buildings to begin with. Any gold you make is simply yield bloat, and has no bearing on when I build the building. Its simpler and cleaner to just remove both the maintenance and the gold bonuses. Let them be maintenance free buildings that do their job: simple, clean, easy.

If you aren't building these buildings for gold, then why remove their maintenance costs? What purpose does that serve? Why are we removing maintenance costs from all sorts of buildings without reason?

Your argument is incoherent. If it's not a Gold building anymore then remove the , but keep the Maintenance cost. You know what buildings didn't have maintenance costs before congress turned everything into a ridiculous jumble? Gold buildings, that's what.

Removing the will mean there is 1 less reason to build these buildings outside of the cities with the guild. The main thing they do is increase their respective specialist's rate by 33%. Outside of that, they have a little base yield (sometimes modified by beliefs/policies), and give some in the guild cities. If you remove the , then all they have is a base yield outside guild cities, which does not justify their cost. You will have succeeded in making a very, very specialized building, which is something you have professed to dislike. Passionately, at times.

So none of this makes sense to me. Giving no maintenance to buildings willy-nilly has no validity, and removing global effects from buildings so they are only useful in 3 cities while also railing against building specialization is self-contradiction.

 

[Stalker0]

If you aren't building these buildings for gold, then why remove their maintenance costs? What purpose does that serve? Why are we removing maintenance costs from all sorts of buildings without reason?

Removing the will mean there is 1 less reason to build these buildings outside of the cities with the guild. The main thing they do is increase their respective specialist's rate by 33%.

Simplification and Streamlining. These buildings are giving gold primarily to offset maintenance costs. that's silly. Just remove both, creating a simpler and more focused building. There is nothing sacrosanct about maintenance, it is a balancing tool. If increasing maintenance makes sense to do, than by all means. if it makes sense to reduce it, by all means.

As for the buildings purpose:

• Amphitheaters give +2 culture at a time when that early culture is still extremely useful for policies and border growth, not to mention boosting certain lux. Its a strong building and a -1 gold is not going to change that.
• Opera Houses give a full +5% culture to the city AND +3 culture, and now without maintenance (which means they actually will lose you less money than they do now) they are just as attractive as they are now.
• Galleries again will actually save you money with the new version, they are more valuable with that proposal not less.

 

[pineappledan]

Simplification and Streamlining. These buildings are giving gold primarily to offset maintenance costs. that's silly. Just remove both, creating a simpler and more focused building.

there is nothing sacrosanct about maintenance, it is a balancing tool. If increasing maintenance makes sense to do, than by all means. if it makes sense to reduce it, by all means.

Buildings have maintenance costs unless they are wonders or they are gold buildings, with very few exceptions. Adding exceptions should come with better reasoning than "streamlining", because that's precisely what you are NOT doing by violating basic design tenets.

Your proposed change weakens the building, makes it exceedingly dependent on policies/beliefs to be worth building outside of 3 cities. This is a mistake.

Take a good look at the buildings you are proposing to create and ask yourself if you would ever build them outside of their respective guild cities.

 

[Stalker0]

Your proposed change weakens the building, makes it exceedingly dependent on policies/beliefs to be worth building outside of 3 cities. This is a mistake.

do you really think a building that gives you 2 culture in classical and has no maintenance is weak? Come on.

 

[rkkn]

uh yes I am still building amphitheater and opera house in every city ever. They are good culture buildings. and I can move great works into them to accelerate border growth on my peripheral cities

 

[pineappledan]

do you really think a building that gives you 2 culture in classical and has no maintenance is weak? Come on.

Yes I do.

Amphitheater costs 200 , and unlocks at the exact same time as the 25% culture process. You could spend 200 to gain 25 turns worth of culture much sooner. That’s also the earliest and cheapest of the 3 buildings; you’re proposing to weaken 2 other much less worthwhile buildings.

Instead of making these buildings competitive for their hammer cost, you’re proposing to make them even weaker. They’re already borderline as is.

 

[Stalker0]

That’s also the earliest and cheapest of the 3 buildings; you’re proposing to weaken 2 other much less worthwhile buildings.

You might want to check your math. My proposal overall means MORE money when you build opera houses and galleries (currently their maintenance is more than what is gained from the guild money bonuses).

My proposal is a buff not a nerf to those buildings. Only the amphitheater is nerfed.

 

[pineappledan]

I proposed to increase their gold contribution in a way that keeps their benefit to wide, and you propose to violate basic maintenance conventions in order to keep the building weak.

Do you honestly feel like amphitheaters ought to be nerfed?

 

[ma_kuh]

To me the consideration is whether Guild Cities should have boosted gold output, which affects their local Poverty, their trade routes (I didn't see this confirmed, but I'm assuming it's true?), and the global median gold income. Maintenance doesn't increase the Poverty of the surrounding non-Guild Cities, so none of the proposals will change that either way.

The debate about whether the gold is value-neutral or not on the empire level is not my concern, I think there's nuance to where that gold exists and that's good for the game.


Looking at two common in-game approaches:

1. Three Guild Cities, one is the Capital
   • They are probably never poor
   • They probably don't affect the median gold target for other cities
   • All three can probably run strong trade routes
2. Seven Guild Cities, one is the Capital with all three types
   • They are less wealthy than the previous case, but probably have fewer Poverty concerns than average
   • They might affect the median gold target of other cities
   • You're probably running trade routes out of the capital, which benefits from all of the gold stacks

Removing the stacked gold will water these differences down. That's how I see the main outcome of these changes for either proposal.

 

[rkkn]

Yes I do.

Amphitheater costs 200 , and unlocks at the exact same time as the 25% culture process. You could spend 200 to gain 25 turns worth of culture much sooner. That’s also the earliest and cheapest of the 3 buildings; you’re proposing to weaken 2 other much less worthwhile buildings.

Instead of making these buildings competitive for their hammer cost, you’re proposing to make them even weaker. They’re already borderline as is.

first of all, a building that takes 25 turns to turn a yield profit is very good. If we assume for simplicity that food, production, and gold are all equal, then water mill in an 8 pop city nets + 6 yields and takes 150 yields to build. That's 25 turns to pay off. And I don't think anyone is going to argue that water mill is not worth building.

Second, amphitheater is even stronger in any city with fresh water, since that culture increases to 3 with baths.

And finally, even if amphitheater did need a buff, making it both produce and reduce gold is not the way to do it. Why do you think gold producing buildings have no maintainence cost? because having +gold and -gold on the same building doesn't make any sense.

 

[Rekk]

because having +gold and -gold on the same building doesn't make any sense.

We've had +gold and maintenance on buildings since CBP started, for good reasons.

 

[adan_eslavo]

because having +gold and -gold on the same building doesn't make any sense.

It does when you have to fulfill the needs.

 

[Stalker0]

It does when you have to fulfill the needs.

which are created because your opponents have those same buildings. Remember happiness is a moving goalpost, anything you get, so does your opponent, so it doesn't "solve happiness" in any way.

What you will see is a slight flattening of the curve, as now fewer cities will have "more gold" compared to others.

 

[Rekk]

Since only guilds are getting the bonus, it means that only a select few cities are seeing the increase in gold.

The use of the median for calculation means that guild cities can get above the poverty median without raising it very much if at all.