(7-08 & 7-09) Polynesia/Shoshone/Huns Changes

[azum4roll]

Counterproposal to:

[Complex] - (7-NS) Polynesia UA and Carthage UA+UB rework

Problems: 1) Both Civs underperform in AI tests. (Especially Polynesia, but Carthage too dependent on map) 2) Carthage and Polynesia are different but have one thing in common – they have ability to use water tiles earlier than ordinary Civs. While it could be justified for Polynesia, it’s...

forums.civfanatics.com

[Complex] - (7-NS) Alternative Carthage adjustments

Counterproposal to (7-30) Polynesia UA and Carthage UA+UB rework Also conflicts with proposal (7-30a) Carthage and Polynesia UA reworks. Previously contained part of counterproposal (7-30e) Polynesia adjustments. Proposal Carthage's UA has the ":trade: Trade Route Resource Diversity...

forums.civfanatics.com

[Complex] - (7-NS) Polynesia UA changes (...and Carthage)

This proposal is intended to be non-conflicting with other polynesia- proposals, and does not include a specific carthage proposal -- any of the others are suitable, or none. This proposal has been revised significantly since first post -- the design purpose is to provide island-centric...

forums.civfanatics.com

(7-08a) Polynesia Adjustments

Counterproposal to (7-30) Polynesia UA and Carthage UA+UB rework Also conflicts with proposals (7-30a) Carthage and Polynesia UA reworks and (7-08b/7-30d) Polynesia/Shoshone/Huns changes. Related to (7-30c) Polynesia UA changes (...and Carthage), (7-08) Maori Warrior rework and (7-08a) Maori...

forums.civfanatics.com

(7-08b) Polynesia Changes

Counterproposal to this: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/7-30-polynesia-ua-and-carthage-ua-ub-rework.688923/ There is also a proposal to change the UU into a scout. In combination with the embarked vision bonuses, this should make Polynesia's early scouting and settling phase much more...

forums.civfanatics.com

This changes the Polynesian UA, Shoshone UA, and Hunnic UA, without touching Carthage.

Current Polynesia UA:
+1 Sight when Embarked, can always Embark and move over Oceans. +2 Food from Fishing Boats and Atolls. Melee and Gunpowder Units can construct Fishing Boats. No Unhappiness from Isolation.

Current Shoshone UA:
Cities claim up to 8 tiles on Founding and 4 tiles on Conquest. All Recon Units can choose rewards from Ancient Ruins. Units gain +20% Combat Strength within 3 tiles of an owned Encampment.

Current Huns UA:
Inflict +100% and receive -50% War Weariness. +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn. Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type.

Problems:

• Last congress moved Moai's combat strength aura to Encampment.
• While being a buff to Shoshone (more on that later), this was an undeserved nerf for Polynesia, who is currently subpar and has the worst UU which was designed having the +20% CS in mind.
• The proposal presumed that it was an "underdeveloped part of their kit". While similar to the Pride of the Ancestors promotion, the aura extended the +20% CS effect 3 tiles towards the ocean, and sometimes towards enemy coastal territory. This allowed Polynesia to defend their island cities with a navy, while also restricting their aggression target to players who dare to settle on their coast.
• Meanwhile, Shoshone is designed to be a forward settler with their borders being dangerously close to other civs' cities. The combat aura essentially allows them to have +20% CS deep into enemy territory (as long as there's one flat tile near their borders). May I remind you that Sweden only gets +20% CS on attack. In short, the Shoshone has more combat bonuses than they were designed for.
• On the other hand, actual AI autorun tests show them underperforming, likely due to the AI not being able to pick ruins, and always picking Authority instead of Progress which fits them best. Authority civs don't perform well for the AI in general.
• The Encampment text is a mouthful. It has a +15% defense bonus for a unit stationed on it, and another +20% CS bonus for any Shoshone unit 3 tiles around it, while also doing 5 damage to all adjacent enemies. Its build tooltip is longer than Feitoria's.
• There's no interest in teaching AI to pick ancient ruins, and some people still play with ruins off. We have no choice but to remove that part of the UA, if we want Shoshone to not be bottom tier.
• The Huns get more tiles, but unlike Russia who gets yields from border expansion and Shoshone who gets a combat bonus in owned territory, the Huns get nothing out of this part of their UA, other than the tiles.
• The +10% multiattack bonus was underwhelming on France as the lone combat bonus, and it's no different on Huns. They need to rely on Horse Archers who have +20% multiattack, but once upgraded their stats are low as any other skirmisher unit.

Proposed Polynesia UA:
+1 Sight when Embarked, can always Embark and move over Oceans. +2 Food from Fishing Boats and Atolls. Melee and Gunpowder Units can construct Fishing Boats. Units gain +20% Combat Strength within 3 tiles of an owned Moai. No Unhappiness from Isolation.

Proposed Shoshone UA:
Cities claim up to 8 tiles on Founding and can grow an additional ring. Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type. Units gain +20% Combat Strength in friendly territory.
(This means a Shoshone city can naturally grow to radius 6, and have some tiles in radius 7 if lucky)

Proposed Huns UA:
Inflict +100% and receive -50% War Weariness. +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn. Gain 1 for every 2 damage dealt to enemy Cities, scaling with Era.
(The yields are given to the city owning the unit that deals damage, or capital if none is found)

In summary:

• The combat aura is moved back onto Moai. (+20% CS for Polynesia units 3 tiles around any Polynesia-owned Moai)
• Shoshone land units get the Pride of the Ancestors promotion again (+20% CS in friendly territory)
• Shoshone loses extra tiles on conquest, gains claiming extra tiles and can grow to radius 6.
  
  • Now 100% focusing on gaining tiles and the passive aggressive play style. Bait your enemies into attacking you, then beat them with the +20% CS in your land (which is everywhere)!
• Huns loses claiming extra tiles, and gains when dealing damage to cities.
  
  • Unlike the old French UA, this is not a win-more ability. You don't need to capture cities to gain yields.
  • Also has synergy with the multiattack bonus, and inflicts war weariness if this proposal passes.

Edit 1: include Huns UA change and further Shoshone UA changes in this same proposal.
Edit 2: remove Moai yield changes which are now moved to another proposal.
Edit 3: remove Maori Warrior changes which are now moved to another proposal.

MAGI: Complex proposal, DLL and database changes

 

[pineappledan]

So basically just revert last congress, add +1 CS to maori warrior, and increase a late game tech yield.
Not inspired.

The % combat bonus in friendly land and the % combat bonus near an improvement you can only build in friendly land are too similar.
The % combat bonus in friendly land is identical to Himeji’s Castle.
It's better for the game if only 1 civ has this kind of bonus, rather than finding ways we can slightly repackage the same effect.

 

[Rekk]

So basically just revert last congress, add +1 CS to maori warrior, and increase a late game tech yield.
Not inspired.

And Maori Warrior acts like Denmark melee units.

 

[Tekamthi]

Last congress moved Moai's combat strength aura to Encampment.

Why can't both have an aura? Maybe just with dif characteristics

Encampment text is a mouthful. It has a +15% defense bonus for a unit stationed on it, and another +20% CS bonus for any Shoshone unit 3 tiles around it, while also doing 5 damage to all adjacent enemies. Its build tooltip is longer than Feitoria's.

I am not persuaded by these text concerns -- as long as it fits on my screen and describes things accurately, it's good in my books. Would not want to throw out good gameplay feature just cuz describing it succinctly is too difficult

Haka War Dance gets additional "Embarking and Disembarking cost only 1 Movement."

to distinguish from other appearances of this ability, you could make it embark only -- of the two embark is more useful for hopping between tight groups of islands, poly's supposed specialty

 

[azum4roll]

to distinguish from other appearances of this ability, you could make it embark only -- of the two embark is more useful for hopping between tight groups of islands, poly's supposed specialty

Then it takes at least 3 turns to jump to another island and start to attack/fortify, unless the island is separated by a 1-tile water gap.

Why can't both have an aura? Maybe just with dif characteristics

You can only give a combat bonus with an aura. A +5 heal is viable (maybe too OP?), but that's new code.

 

[azum4roll]

The % combat bonus in friendly land and the % combat bonus near an improvement you can only build in friendly land are too similar.

The biggest difference is that one works for nearby ships, which is very important for Polynesia's island defense. Shoshone doesn't need this with their UI prioritizing settling off-coast.

 

[Tekamthi]

Then it takes at least 3 turns to jump to another island and start to attack/fortify, unless the island is separated by a 1-tile water gap.

True, but flat disembark is such a premiere ability, its better as a unique Denmark thing, I'd rather it not overlap, at least not broadly. Flat embark only is still a little faster, but you're right, only slightly

You can only give a combat bonus with an aura. A +5 heal is viable (maybe too OP?), but that's new code.

You know, many years ago, there was an aura effect that gave out promotions via the aura -- you'd just assign the aura range and the promotion it would give, and then you could have aura with any effect you wanted. On one revision, suddenly it broke, and I requested it be fixed -- instead whichever dev was responding at the time decided it would be best just to take that aura mechanism out entirely and replace with much less interesting, and much more limited auras. Too bad, I guess it was cpu intensive but it was powerful feature. On that note do we maybe want to move away from auras? Are they not expensive features, computationally?

 

[azum4roll]

Edited to include Huns UA change and further Shoshone UA changes in this same proposal.

I'd prefer to split this into multiple proposals, but I can't see how.

 

[Legen]

I'd prefer to split this into multiple proposals, but I can't see how.

Personally, I wish I could have Carthage and Polynesia changes as separate proposals in my own counterproposal as well.

 

[Tekamthi]

Yeah the bundling of these things is gonna make for a confusing vote

Edit: is there some reason that aura can only work as CS%? I understand this is what it's currently setup for but what makes a CS% aura preferable to an aura that confers movement bonus, for example... Is it the "on move" check vs "on combat"?

 

[pineappledan]

Oh man, what a crazy web we weave.

Commenting on the new Shoshone Huns parts:

• The move of the Moai/Encampment combat bonus is good, and I stand by it. Your initial animus towards the change was basically a misconception that you then proceeded to spread to the rest of the community without verifying it. Polynesia can be buffed in other ways.
• Removing the bonus yields on city capture just seems kind of pointless. Like you're trying to induce a raze-resettle playstyle, but the adjacent tile claim bonus is so strong it won't even matter. It doesn't save you any text in the UA to keep it.
• Increasing the max radius of tile claim is a very strange bonus. Giving Cities the ability to expand so far outside of their working radius wont benefit them that much. Shoshone will cap out on land reasonably fast, but it's still not a very useful bonus in most cases. The only place you will see it is when they are claiming deep ocean tiles further out from the continent, and that's not very on-brand.
• I like the Huns proposal in general. With your note about how your other proposed War Weariness change on damaging cities would affect this, I think this is pretty cool.
• I think if the Eki isn't being used to guide expansion, like how it could be used with the old UA, it probably needs some sort of new utility.
• I know you hate the ruins picker ability, but there is a fairly loud contingent of people who really like it. I don't like it much either, and I think it's basically useless now that ruins have been rebalanced, but I don't think you're going to win converts by proposing to axe it.

 

[Rekk]

Your initial animus towards the change was basically a misconception that you then proceeded to spread to the rest of the community without verifying it.

His initial animus against the change was that the Moai were able to affect naval battles while anchoring Polynesia combat "near" the coast.

 

[pineappledan]

Just want to reiterate that instead of giving a combat bonus that has the option of being used in ocean, he's giving a tile claim bonus (max ring radius) that pretty much ONLY can be used in ocean.

So if "ocean bad" is the actual reason, what is this?

 

[Rekk]

he's giving a tile claim bonus (max ring radius) that pretty much ONLY can be used in ocean.

Yes, it seems he didn't think this part through.

 

[Tekamthi]

instead of giving a combat bonus that has the option of being used in ocean, he's giving a tile claim bonus (max ring radius) that pretty much ONLY can be used in ocean.

I don't understand what you mean here... the BGP on moai not changing per proposal and he is giving back the aura

 

[Rekk]

I don't understand what you mean here... the BGP on moai not changing per proposal and he is giving back the aura

By the time a city would start growing into its 6th ring, the only tiles available to grow into are in the ocean. You're not hitting this ring during the initial city rush.

 

[Tekamthi]

By the time a city would start growing into its 6th ring, the only tiles available to grow into are in the ocean. You're not hitting this ring during the initial city rush.

Okay, this makes sense to be as a standalone statement... But connect the dots for me. How do we go from proposal to this 6th ring concern? Is it the shoshone part? I am confused cuz I am thinking of the poly part?

 

[pineappledan]

Azum, the OP of this proposal, complained about how the old Shoshone UA only boosted land units, and that switching it to the bonus given within a radius of the encampment would allow naval units to benefit. He didn't like how this allowed Shoshone units to benefit from the encampment near coastlines, because "they aren't a naval civ".
Now his proposal to revert that change also includes this bonus to max city radius, a bonus that will only be relevant when claiming deep ocean tiles far off your coastline in the late game. It has no benefit to claiming land tiles, which will all be gone before you hit 6th ring on standard map and size settings.

Thus, he appears to have spent months handwringing about the potential to use a land/sea agnostic bonus to the benefit of sea... only to then go and propose what is in practice a pure sea bonus.

Also the naval utility would be curtailed significantly if the Shoshone aura radius was 2 as intended. This would make it much harder for boats to use.

Moderator Action: Bordering on trolling with the tone here. Keep things civil and attack the argument, not the opponent. - Recursive
edited for tone. substance unchanged.

 

[Legen]

Now his proposal to rever that change also includes this bonus to max city radius, which is for all intents and purposes only a bonus that will be relevant when claiming deep ocean tiles off your coastline. It has absolutely no relevance to land tiles, which will be all claimed before you hit 6th ring in standard map and size settings.

Not necessarily, since Shoshone has that 8-tile bomb when settling, and they gain the Eki's ability to get an additional tile whenever their borders expand in this proposal. Getting to a 6-tile is not that inconceivable, though it needs testing.

 

[Rekk]

Okay, this makes sense to be as a standalone statement... But connect the dots for me. How do we go from proposal to this 6th ring concern? Is it the shoshone part? I am confused cuz I am thinking of the poly part?

Proposed Shoshone UA:
Cities claim up to 8 tiles on Founding and can grow an additional ring. Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type. Units gain +20% Combat Strength in friendly territory.
(This means a Shoshone city can naturally grow to radius 6, and have some tiles in radius 7 if lucky)