a few thoughts on additions

[self biased]

firstly, where do we stand on adding the smax factions? i think they could be worked in, arguably as corporations, though one is already implemented as a religion. what do you think?

 

[Maniac]

The Pirates, Angels, Drones and Progenitors will be added. Not in the near future though.

 

[self biased]

as actual factions? is it wholly appropriate for a faction based around the idea of clandestine operations and decentralization to have actual bases? it seems a little silly to me, that's all.

 

[Maniac]

Well, I kinda agree.

When you talk about making them a corporation, do you envision them as some group exclusively employed by one of the main factions?

 

[self biased]

depending on how it could be worked, i've a few ideas:

Data Angels: espionage, of course. the incorporating faction should get an additional espionage bonus against foreign factions utilizing them.
Nautilus Pirates: can only be spread in sea and coastal bases. grants the 'pirate' ability to any naval vessels, and possibly an experience bonus depending on how widespread the corporation is. i'd like to see more done with hidden nationality, and this would be a good way to do it.
The Free Drones: i dislike the idea of promoting drones in a base, but i run out of any useful ideas here. extra minerals? bonus to great people? there are quite a few ways that this one can go, and i don't have any ideas.
The Cybernetic Consciousness & The Cult of Planet: these work best as religions, but i wouldn't mind seeing religious buildings based on all the religions to provide a small bonus based on whatever it is the religion promotes.

i'm also wondering if we can consolidate unit types into something a little more elegant. i'll meditate on that later, but i think we can draw a little bit from fall from heaven: most unit types are available from the start, but as weapons and armor get better, the basic units get better as well.

 

[Tssha]

I think you may be missing the point of the Free Drones here. Like those who advocate for the poor, they don't seek to increase the number of drones in the world, but rather make their lot in life better...and possibly make it so they can move up in the world, or, better yet, make the name "Drone" analogous with the word "Peasant"... i.e., a social status relegated to the history books. In Free Drones cities, Drones would be equals, and thus would be happy citizens classified simply as "workers" by the in game parlance.

After all, the way to reduce the number of Drones in a base is to make them happy. This enfranchises them, pacifies them, oppresses them until they're no longer a threat (Punishment sphere, etc.), whatever. The point is they go away. It's only if you don't mollify them that they go and have drone riots and join the Free Drones and whatnot.

The others I don't have much problem with, except the hook for the Nautilus Pirates is a faction that thrives in the ocean that most factions ignore until their options for expansion on land are dried up...so to speak (yeah, ironic pun definitely not intended ). Turning them into a corporation that gives piracy promotions seems rather...anti-ideological...and unfun.

 

[nutz4dos]

Perhaps the Nautilus Pirates can still appear as a playable faction. A faction that has decided to abandon life on land in favor of the sea (or, at the very least, landed in the ocean and coped well) is one of the few expansion factions that actually makes sense in the context of what the factions are supposed to represent.
Making the Data Angels a corporation makes sense, it just requires the addition of more than just Data Angels and Free Drones as corporations to be allowed. Perhaps the Morganites can start with a corporation.
I have no idea what to do with the Progenitors. Truth to tell I never thought they really fit the rest of the game well. They seemed out of place, the game was really about human colonists, after all.

 

[Maniac]

For the record, when self biased talked about a faction based around the idea of clandestine operations and decentralization, I thought he was talking exclusively about the Data Angels. There's no way I'll turn the Pirates into a corporation.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I understand the point of self biased in regard to Data Angels and bases and I agree that it does not fit perfectly. But I don't think corporations are a better way to model them - the corporation model is just too simple and religion-like to make up for misising out a playable faction. Plus all the technical questions attached to it...does only the one founding them profits? Then they are kind of plague, which both leaves you vulnerable to espionage and cost you money (unless you change that). Or do non-founders still receive some extra espionage points, which are cancelled by a penalty vs. the founder? Also, if they are the only corporation, then the replace mechanism (which is in BTS the only way to get rid of a corporation again) they would be out. Not a good thing, IMO. To provide at least some strategy, we need counter measures (certain civics) or a kind of "inquisitor unit" for removal.

On the whole I don't think it's worth sacrifing a playable a faction; for the other SMAX factions I see even less romm to make them corporations (for the reasons others have already named). Cult of Planet and Cybernetic don't need to be extra factions, I like Maniac's idea to make them eventually 2nd leaders of the Gaians/University.

But don't get me wrong...I think we should have corporations in Planetfall - but I prefer the classic ones attached to ressources. If they ever get in Planetfall, I think they should be centered around getting ressource monopols.

For the aliens...I never really get the backround story around them in SMAX and I also think that there implementation there could have been better, but gameplay-wise I think they are worth to have as another source of tension.

 

[Maniac]

If they ever get in Planetfall, I think they should be centered around getting ressource monopols.

Resource monopolies?
I see corporations as a means to ensure it's not pointless to have more than one of a certain resource.

 

[nutz4dos]

Losing a faction doesn't really mean losing much. Originally only 7 could be on the map at any given time anyway. And I'd rather have good factions that fit the setting than more factions that don't.
The expansion factions never really made sense as Unity survivors who'd made Planetfall (again, other than the Pirates, maybe). No one would found a faction based on the Data Angel ideals, for example. And the Free Drones definitely don't work as a planetfall faction, since their entire premise is entirely post-planetfall ideas.
Neither leader really fits any of the other factions either, save just maybe the Peacekeepers. Rose for free flow of information and ideas and all that jazz, and Domai for the democratic free society with full equal rights and treatment for all citizens. Though the Free Drones could be a civ that forms as a result of a massive drone riot latter in the game, instead of being available at the start.

 

[Maniac]

The expansion factions never really made sense as Unity survivors who'd made Planetfall (again, other than the Pirates, maybe).

I'd let the Pirates and Angels appear 50 to 100 years after Planetfall.

I guess you could think of the Angels as another variety of pirates, having little known small bases somewhat away from the main group of the original seven factions, where people could trade in black market goods and stuff like that.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Losing a faction doesn't really mean losing much. Originally only 7 could be on the map at any given time anyway. And I'd rather have good factions that fit the setting than more factions that don't.
The expansion factions never really made sense as Unity survivors who'd made Planetfall (again, other than the Pirates, maybe). No one would found a faction based on the Data Angel ideals, for example. And the Free Drones definitely don't work as a planetfall faction, since their entire premise is entirely post-planetfall ideas.
Neither leader really fits any of the other factions either, save just maybe the Peacekeepers. Rose for free flow of information and ideas and all that jazz, and Domai for the democratic free society with full equal rights and treatment for all citizens. Though the Free Drones could be a civ that forms as a result of a massive drone riot latter in the game, instead of being available at the start.

As Maniac said, it is possible that those factions enter the stage later. I'm fine with that for Data Angels, Pirates and Drones. It makes sense that they appear as reaction to bad conditions in certain areas.
The Drones could enter the stage after the first city revolting because of insufficient food or - if the revolts stay as rare - if a "drone counter" reaches a certain level (each drone in the world counts one point each turn, sum gets accumulated over time), the Data Angels after X Great Hackers have been born around the world and the Pirates after X seabases have been found by other factions.
It would be just important to let those late comers start with some goodies to allow them to play an important role in the rest of the game. FFH also allows the player to take over a late coming civilization while giving the old to the AI - it would be cool if Planetfall would allow that as well.

It is right that SMAC only allowed 7 seven factions at once and the game wasn't unfun because of that (there were other more serious fun killers like bad AI and some unbalanced strategies). However, I think it could have been more fun with more factions in the game and I know that this was also a frequent request from other.
Also Planetfall isn't a clone of SMAC, but a Civ4 mod what tries to keep the spirit of SMAC while using the better engine and the new features of Civ4, if it makes sense.

The main reason why I want to have more then 7 factions in the game is diplomacy.
My experience with Civ - from Vanilla to BTS - is that 12 is a kind of treshold for interesting games in this regard. It makes a huge difference if 7 or 12 players are in the game - there is more room then for both conflict and alliances. It needs enough wars to get the ball rolling, while too many DPs spoil the game. There are surely other menas to help with that as well, but more factions shouldn't be left out.

And my last reason is...if a SMAX doesn't appear as new faction, how then? 2nd leaders make perfect sense for Aki Zeta and Dawn, but for the others...? Corporations are just too simple and provide too little strategy, IMHO. And leaving them out completly feels like a loss for me.

 

[Maniac]

The Drones could enter the stage after the first city revolting because of insufficient food or - if the revolts stay as rare -...

Yeah, the AI is too good at base and drone control to allow revolts to happen.
I had the idea that genejack factories would encourage players to grow their cities larger than their happiness limit, and that there would be a revolt chance based on how many drones you employ. But so far I've not felt the urge to use the genejack factory myself...
I could also add an espionage mission which creates some barbarian/rebel 'Partisan' units around the city.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I had the idea that genejack factories would encourage players to grow their cities larger than their happiness limit, and that there would be a revolt chance based on how many drones you employ. But so far I've not felt the urge to use the genejack factory myself...

I tend to build them sooner or later in all bigger bases. It's not really that I'm running a kind of Drone economy or that I focuss on growing above the limits on purpose (either my terrain improvement don't focuss enough on food generation, then its impossible or if I run a lot of farms, I still have an eye on the FC - and overpoluation is just not good for your planet value)...but some bases -especially multi-religion ones or ones I leave without defense sometimes- get drones sometimes and I'm just to eager about getting something out of them

I could also add an espionage mission which creates some barbarian/rebel 'Partisan' units around the city.

BTW, I wonder if I can send AI bases into native revolts by the "Forment Unhappiness" mission (given they don't run EB and the bases actually starve)? I tried a few times, but never suceeded.

 

[Maniac]

BTW, I wonder if I can send AI bases into native revolts by the "Forment Unhappiness" mission (given they don't run EB and the bases actually starve)? I tried a few times, but never suceeded.

You'd need to reduce their health/food supply to get food riots. Isn't there a 'poison water supply' mission? Don't know the exact name - I never bother with espionage... Also beware that the chance for food riots decreases the larger and the more advanced the base garrison is. <- should mention this in the food riot hint

 

[nutz4dos]

The Drones could enter the stage after the first city revolting because of insufficient food or - if the revolts stay as rare - if a "drone counter" reaches a certain level (each drone in the world counts one point each turn, sum gets accumulated over time), the Data Angels after X Great Hackers have been born around the world and the Pirates after X seabases have been found by other factions.
It would be just important to let those late comers start with some goodies to allow them to play an important role in the rest of the game. FFH also allows the player to take over a late coming civilization while giving the old to the AI - it would be cool if Planetfall would allow that as well.

Well, FFH only allows the player to take control if he completed whatever the trigger was to found the new race. If the Drones only appear after a certain point is reached then that's a little harder, isn't it? Although... one could allow an AI autoplay if the player decides to use a late game faction that would then allow him to take over once the faction does come into existence. Or, to simulate that, the "earlier" game factions would start with more bases and units, while the "late" game factions compensate with an extra tech or some such thing. Really, just something that would give the AI controlling the original factions a head start.
Again, while I think the Pirates do make sense as a starting faction, it is the Data Angels and Drones that don't really work for me. If they trigger in late game it has to be because something happened. Maybe secret project completion is the way to go after all. Once someone completes the Planetary Datalinks, or something like that, the Data Angels are founded. Same goes for the Free Drones and some equally appropriate project. Though that still feels like a cop-out. If you founded them then they should take over where you did so, but if you do that then they start completely hemmed in by their founder's empire. Or they take over a significant part of said faction and that doesn't do anyone much good. They're social movements more than anything else, how do you represent that?

Also Planetfall isn't a clone of SMAC, but a Civ4 mod what tries to keep the spirit of SMAC while using the better engine and the new features of Civ4, if it makes sense.

I mention it since Planetfall is going for that same kind of feel, and the smaller number of factions was a huge part of how SMAC worked. It's hard to believe that the crew would have separated into many more factions than we already see, especially since for them to split there would need to be substantial differences between the leaders.

And my last reason is...if a SMAX doesn't appear as new faction, how then? 2nd leaders make perfect sense for Aki Zeta and Dawn, but for the others...? Corporations are just too simple and provide too little strategy, IMHO. And leaving them out completly feels like a loss for me.

I don't know, I could easily go with never seeing the Progenitors again....
And if the other factions are movements that begin in established bases, I'm just not sure the best way to have it so they become more active. Except as religions, corporations, or civics.
Now there's an idea, add another social engineering option, Labour, with Free Drones as an option that focuses on skilled laborers, and Data Angels focusing on "white collar" work. Two other options; one a default option (No Focus?), and another based on abusing unskilled labor (Drone Suppression?) makes an even four. Selecting the Free Drones or Data Angels would give the benefits that these factions always received.
Then you just add the two leaders as second options for other factions. The more I think about it, if another way of adding the Data Angels does arise then Rose does work as a Peacekeeper leader. It's said that they are all about free flow of information and that because of this they attract a lot of intellectual elite. That's her all over. Well, as much as Aki is University and Cha Dawn is Gaian, anyway. For Domai, maybe keep him as a barbarian leader that will appear if a drone revolt gets out of hand.

 

[self biased]

i agree; most of the 'civics' are pretty narrow. while i'm not familiar with the fluff (as opposed to the crunchy rules bits) was Aki-z5 confirmed to be university? i can just as easily believe that she was a hapless talent doing some research for the spartans or hive and coming to some apalling conclusions on her own.

depending on what can be done programming wise, i think the data angels should be a corporation or a facsimilie thereof; they're legion, and willing to work with the highest bidder. perhaps have them grant a bonus to espionage, and either stifle espionage versus their controller (which seems easiest), or a bonus versus wherever they've infiltarted. one could always offer them more money to have them set up their home base elsewhere.

as long as we're on the subject, it may be easier to handle if we either subjugated all the SMAX human factions to other mechanics or just give them their own song. one or the other. either everyone's a special flower or nobody is, and can be explained away with different mechanics. i'm not saying one route is better than another, i'm just saying that if the drones and pirates get their own faction, so should the Cyborgs and the Planet Cult.

it's not an easy decision to make, mind you, but i would reccommend extreme caution were we to go much beyond what we have now.

 

[Maniac]

Although... one could allow an AI autoplay if the player decides to use a late game faction that would then allow him to take over once the faction does come into existence.

I'd make the Drones/Angels/Pirates playable if you start in the Expansion era, and the Progenitors if you start in the Alien Crossfire era.