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A lament for the mighty River, reduced to superfluity.

TheCaptn

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
29
It's generally bugged me that of all the contributing factors to the rise and fall of civilisations, the river, which is arguably one of the greatest, should be so reduced in stature when translated into the game series. And if I thought they were unfairly represented in Civ 4, then Civ 5 makes things worse instead of better.

From prehistoric times in which the river was often revered as being the mother of all life (i.e. the Mekong, Danube and Rhine), through to the present day where in many countries they form the backbone of a sustainable energy industry (other environmental impacts notwithstanding), they have always played a key role in determining the futures of tribes, towns, or nations.
The river is a food source in its own right, a highway, a trade hub, sanitation for earlier eras and a crucial industrial resource for later ones. It should be a fortification for defense and a corridor for cultural expansion or military enterprise.

To those ends I've got a whole list of changes that I'd love to see. My philosophy behind these changes is that the rivers represented in Civ 5 are the 'great rivers', not the scenic little ones, and that what we see of them is largely the navigable extent of the river and not necessarily all the tributaries to their headwaters.
For those who might be dubious about this idea, try to keep in mind just how massive some of these rivers are. For instance the Battle of Red Cliffs could arguably have been the largest naval battle in history, except that it was fought on the Yangtze River about 1000km inland, and not on the open sea.
So I'd like to see rivers become the key tile feature. Providing not just a handy little bonus to food production, but the most critical tiles of the game... You'd leave them only if you had to, for a luxury resource or the like.

Simple ideas:
  • Drop Irrigation (since the assumption is that there are plenty of other smaller rivers we don't see)
  • River tiles +1 Food with Sailing
  • River tiles +1 Food on 'delta' tiles (i.e. those with both river and coast properties)
  • River tiles +1 Wealth with Currency
  • River tiles +1 Wealth with Economics
  • River tiles +1 Production with Civil Service
  • River tiles +1 Production with Steam Power
  • Rivers connect cities with trade routes like they did in Civ 4.
  • River tiles act like roads with Optics, but crossing still ends a unit's turn (so imagine them like two-lane highways from Embarkation onwards).
  • Attacking across a river should be -50%, and -25% with Amphibious (it's always less than ideal, and makes river forks great defensive sites for towns).

More complex ideas:
  • Some mechanism to make them highly sensitive to pollution. Tile-based unhappiness from factories, ironworks, seaports, nuclear plants (so the more river tiles the city works, the greater that unhappiness). Happiness from harbors and hydro plants to compensate.
  • Can build Harbors in river cities (no graphic representation).
  • Allow pre-industrial age ships to travel along and explore rivers somehow, including blockading cities upriver (maybe make them much more sensitive to ranged attacks while on a river).

That's about it for the moment. Long live the mighty river! :D
 
Rivers connect cities with trade routes like they did in Civ 4.
I looked through the XML for a way to do this and didn't see anything obvious. I'd just started looking at the LUA, maybe there will be in there.

Anything you want to do with moving on a river is going to be pretty difficult I think since rivers run along tiles and not through them. Also should river movement bypass ZOC issues? What about directionality? Going up river should take longer than down river, at least until steam power or later.

If you do find a way to do this, please make the river = trade route a separate mod as that's one I'm really interested in.
 
Anything you want to do with moving on a river is going to be pretty difficult I think since rivers run along tiles and not through them. Also should river movement bypass ZOC issues? What about directionality? Going up river should take longer than down river, at least until steam power or later.

Yeah, I'm aware of the difficulties. I have absolutely no idea how to get around that, but for a jumping-off point I've been wondering if it might be possible to just let them travel on river-connected tiles while the display graphic shows a little boat actually positioned over the river.
I do appreciate that this is a difficult one though.
 
Or perhaps change the appearance of the unit (in the same way as embarking/disembarking does, but without the movement penalty), so that it's still appropriately maritime but doesn't look out of place standing on a land tile... Perhaps a longboat pulled up on shore with a couple of sailors?

Then it's just a matter of restricting its movement to river tiles.
 
So create a new tile.

Not that I even know if it's possible, or ever will be possible.

It's possible....

Sorta.

But you quickly run into scale issues because there will be some unless playing on truly large maps.

Hopefully CivVI will have river tiles so I can finally make a good Mississippi campaign scenario.
 
Would probably work best as a new Features (like hills and ice are) that way you could have a river on all types of land and with forest jungles ect

From what I remember there is most of what we need in that files we could reduces movement cost have it add fresh water have it require fresh water or cost add yield increase defences

So most of the first post ideas should be doable but I don’t think the WB would use it right and I don’t know how to make the art so I can’t say how hard that would be
 
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