A(nother) request for advice......
- Thread starter hou jing
- Start date
MangleMeElmo
Proud War Criminal
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Move the scout toward the east first. Can't decide until you do that.
I already moved him one turn to the east. He started directly 1 north of the settler (my apologies, I should have specified this). It is now time to decide to settle on the circled tile or move the settlers and with this start, I wasn't sure which 'move' would be best.
I say build where you are right now for these reasons:
1. It's on a river tile, this means +2
in your capital and you'll be able to build a hydro plant or the Three Gorges dam wonder.
2. You have 4 decent food sources within your city cross. Your city is going to grow very quickly.
3. You'll have access to a strategic resource right off the bat. (Ivory)
4. You'll be able to chop rush buildings and wonders with the forests in the city's cross and build lumber mills later in the game.
5. You'll be able to get a good defense bonus from the hill you are on with archers and units that have guerrilla I and II.
1. It's on a river tile, this means +2
in your capital and you'll be able to build a hydro plant or the Three Gorges dam wonder.2. You have 4 decent food sources within your city cross. Your city is going to grow very quickly.
3. You'll have access to a strategic resource right off the bat. (Ivory)
4. You'll be able to chop rush buildings and wonders with the forests in the city's cross and build lumber mills later in the game.
5. You'll be able to get a good defense bonus from the hill you are on with archers and units that have guerrilla I and II.
Morgrad
Attack Rodent
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- Feb 12, 2007
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Settle on the gold? No way!
I agree with the first post - on the ivory, hands-down - you lose the sheep (which gives you a nice food resource for another city), but keep the river, wheat, two fish, and gold - and get +1 happy from the get-go because you started with Hunting. Hubba-hubba.
The question is, once you settle, what's next?
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
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On the Jumbos. I don't think it is close.
The production of the gold hill and the ivory camp are equivalent, so that's a wash - until railroads, at which point you would rather have the mine.
The mine gives +6C over what the tile is worth if you settle on it. The camp is worth +1F/+1C over what you get if you settle on it. (settling on the gold, of course, gives you 1 "free" commerce per turn. If I thought the gold mine was going to be slow to set up, that might weight in; as it stands, I think the mine will have time to catch up before the difference becomes tangible).
In moving south, you do temporarily surrender three tiles (it looks like the sheep and two grassland forests get traded for to coastal tiles and a plains river tile). So sure, when you get to the modern era the initial location will be a stronger city - but the gold mine gives you a big early advantage (which you will nurse to a win), and those good tiles that you have "lost" may be profitably worked by another city, perhaps (had you been thinking about this trade off, you might have sent the scout North, to see if there was another parlay for the sheep; you still would have had a move remaining to attain the current position, but with more information).
Of course, in giving up those forests, you are also giving up some chop (or some health, but really now - those are the forests that are coming down if you settle in place, so hammers is the more realistic call).
I don't think defense comes into play - perhaps in very specific circumstances, but not as a general rule. So the hill bonus doesn't impress me.
The production of the gold hill and the ivory camp are equivalent, so that's a wash - until railroads, at which point you would rather have the mine.
The mine gives +6C over what the tile is worth if you settle on it. The camp is worth +1F/+1C over what you get if you settle on it. (settling on the gold, of course, gives you 1 "free" commerce per turn. If I thought the gold mine was going to be slow to set up, that might weight in; as it stands, I think the mine will have time to catch up before the difference becomes tangible).
In moving south, you do temporarily surrender three tiles (it looks like the sheep and two grassland forests get traded for to coastal tiles and a plains river tile). So sure, when you get to the modern era the initial location will be a stronger city - but the gold mine gives you a big early advantage (which you will nurse to a win), and those good tiles that you have "lost" may be profitably worked by another city, perhaps (had you been thinking about this trade off, you might have sent the scout North, to see if there was another parlay for the sheep; you still would have had a move remaining to attain the current position, but with more information).
Of course, in giving up those forests, you are also giving up some chop (or some health, but really now - those are the forests that are coming down if you settle in place, so hammers is the more realistic call).
I don't think defense comes into play - perhaps in very specific circumstances, but not as a general rule. So the hill bonus doesn't impress me.
MangleMeElmo
Proud War Criminal
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Settle on elephants. Never settle on gold or any other luxury resource that produces a lot of commerce.
Oh! There's gold there and I didn't see it. Ha, I do that a lot. And it's extremely infuriating when I do it, believe me!
Yeah, I guess you'll have to settle on the ivory in that case. Reasons 1 3 and 4 are still relevant, but I'd like to know what's over by that river...
BARBEERIAN
Prince
Settle on the Ivory for sure. Normally your capital is 2food, 1 hammer, 1 commerce. Settling on Ivory gives your city tile +1 hammer (2f, 2h, 1c). So at size 1 you make buildings twice as fast. You also instantly get access to Ivory as well without building a camp. (Note that building a camp only adds +1hammer and +1 commerce to an elephant tile. So you only lose the extra commerce.
Settling on a plains hill also gives your city +1 hammer. However, since the plains hill you started on has Gold on it this would waste too much of the extra value of it. Settling on gold gives your city +1 commerce (so in this case with the plains gold hill it would be (2f, 2h, 2c), but working a mined gold plains hill is alot more commerce than that (7/8 commerce). Especially early on that extra commerce is massive for your research.
Besides, having 4 food would be pretty sweet. But isn't a 3 food capital still pretty badass? Let another city work the sheep, it's no big loss.
Settling on a plains hill also gives your city +1 hammer. However, since the plains hill you started on has Gold on it this would waste too much of the extra value of it. Settling on gold gives your city +1 commerce (so in this case with the plains gold hill it would be (2f, 2h, 2c), but working a mined gold plains hill is alot more commerce than that (7/8 commerce). Especially early on that extra commerce is massive for your research.
Besides, having 4 food would be pretty sweet. But isn't a 3 food capital still pretty badass? Let another city work the sheep, it's no big loss.
tboner23
Chieftain
Part of me wants to say settle on the gold anyway........ take a gamble, grab the sheep, and find some other site for the commerce. But really thats only because I would want to see what happens.
Safe bet is on the Ivory, you wont even have to hook it up to churn out a stampede of death!
Safe bet is on the Ivory, you wont even have to hook it up to churn out a stampede of death!
What hou jing neglected to mention is that he's playing as Philosophical Frederick. With that knowledge, settling in place conjures up dreams of a very strong GPP. Ultimately, though, since he started with Hunting and Mining, I agree that ivory is the place to settle. Berlin will still be a powerful GPP, but now he can exploit the gold to gain some vital early research time. My first thought after settling on the ivory is to hurry up and discover how to fish, then churn out a fishing boat for the coast (scout in the meantime). After that, build a worker to mine the gold and get that early tech jump. By that point, the borders will have popped and another fishing boat can join in the fun.
VoU: The tile tradeoff when moving south includes a grassland hill 2 of the wheat.
VoU: The tile tradeoff when moving south includes a grassland hill 2 of the wheat.
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
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I concur; I forgot to squint during my original analysis.
MrCynical
Deity
Given you're playing a Philosophical leader, I'd say settle where you are. You lose some of the gold benefit, but you get a site with four high food tiles; an excellent GP farm. The ivory isn't too bad a site either, and commerce from the gold at your capital is always good, but you lose the sheep, making a less good GP farm. Depends a little what's on the tiles to the south.
Indiansmoke
Deity
Settle in place
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
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I don't find that convincing at all. Two fish (2 specialists each with lighthouse), the wheat (1 specialist) and the city tile, gets you 6 specialists at size 9. So the trade would be the availability of the gold mine (I would work it in preference to a specialist, your mileage may vary) versus the 7th specialist (at size 11), and some growth speed.
(Clearly, difficulty level is relevant here. That seventh specialist is less valuable as you climb in levels, because the happy cap delays his availability).
Or, put another way, I really don't expect to be using a city with 6 blank tiles as a modern era GP farm. So I'm happy to trade the long term GP potential here for faster start.
ObMicro: note that settling on the heffalumps irrigates the wheat for free when biology comes in. Not a big deal if you were farming all the flat tiles anyway, but worth a bonus food if you planned to pepper the land with cottages.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
I think either elephants or gold is a good spot. Myself I would prefer to settle on the elephants.
The question is, once you settle, what's next?
To me, this is the more interesting question. Personally, I'd settle on the elephants, research Fishing, then Bronze Working.
The build order I'm not sure about - would it be better to go worker first (to get the Gold up and running), or something like "Scout-F.Boat-Worker" to get the food in faster?
VoU, I had a bit of an advantage, in that hou e-mailed me the 4000 BC save before telling me about the thread he started (Noble, Epic, btw). 
Toranth, I played around a little bit with that very dilemma. The scout finishes in 8 turns, and you research fishing in 9, with the city growing in 17 turns if you work the plains wheat. Working the same tile, the worker would finish in 18 turns. I think the metric is how fast each gets you to mine/fishing boats/size 2, since from there it's a no-brainer to work the mine and boats for good production, +3f growth and a research powerhouse, and how much extra you can squeeze out before then.
Fishing boat first gives you the worker at turn 33 (8 turn scout, one turn into warrior or whatever while fishing finishes, then 12 turns on the boat and 12 on the worker) and the mine at turn 40. You can start working the mine immediately, for a 7f/5h/18c town.
Worker first gets the mine up and running at turn 25, but in order to grow, you'll be unable to work it for several turns. If you start the work boat at turn 19, you've got 45 hammers and 33 food to go and 6 turns of no improvements. In those six turns, you can accumulate from your one citizen 12 beakers/12 hammers by working the gold, 6 food/12 hammers by working a plains forest or 12 food/6 hammers by working the wheat. Once the mine is up (and assuming you begin working it right away), the work boat will either take 7 or 8 turns, depending on what you worked (5 hpt, 33 or 39 to go). That gives you the mine and fishing boats at turn 32/33. Working the boats to get to size 2 will take 5, 6 or 7 turns, giving you pop 2 at turn 38 for wheat and forest or 39 for the gold. Either way, you're slightly ahead of the boat-first method, and you've gotten 7-8 turns of +6 commerce in the meantime. I think worker first is the way to go, unless I've overlooked something or confused myself trying to run through all of this in my head.
Toranth, I played around a little bit with that very dilemma. The scout finishes in 8 turns, and you research fishing in 9, with the city growing in 17 turns if you work the plains wheat. Working the same tile, the worker would finish in 18 turns. I think the metric is how fast each gets you to mine/fishing boats/size 2, since from there it's a no-brainer to work the mine and boats for good production, +3f growth and a research powerhouse, and how much extra you can squeeze out before then.
Fishing boat first gives you the worker at turn 33 (8 turn scout, one turn into warrior or whatever while fishing finishes, then 12 turns on the boat and 12 on the worker) and the mine at turn 40. You can start working the mine immediately, for a 7f/5h/18c town.
Worker first gets the mine up and running at turn 25, but in order to grow, you'll be unable to work it for several turns. If you start the work boat at turn 19, you've got 45 hammers and 33 food to go and 6 turns of no improvements. In those six turns, you can accumulate from your one citizen 12 beakers/12 hammers by working the gold, 6 food/12 hammers by working a plains forest or 12 food/6 hammers by working the wheat. Once the mine is up (and assuming you begin working it right away), the work boat will either take 7 or 8 turns, depending on what you worked (5 hpt, 33 or 39 to go). That gives you the mine and fishing boats at turn 32/33. Working the boats to get to size 2 will take 5, 6 or 7 turns, giving you pop 2 at turn 38 for wheat and forest or 39 for the gold. Either way, you're slightly ahead of the boat-first method, and you've gotten 7-8 turns of +6 commerce in the meantime. I think worker first is the way to go, unless I've overlooked something or confused myself trying to run through all of this in my head.
