A possible solution to the "Spearman-Beating-a-Tank" problem

[Sim_One]

I don't know if others have already repeatedly mentioned this or not, nor can I really confirm if this is true.

As far as I know, for example, if a regular archer is fighting a regular warrior, the outcome of the battle is determined on an individual hitpoint basis. I'll use the term "round" to mean that everytime a unit in the battle loses a hitpoint. So when the archer attacks the warrior, the chance is that during a round, the warrior is more likely to lose the hitpoint than the archer.

So I figure, if I increase the hitpoints of all the units in the game, conscript to 4, regluar to 6, veteran to 8 and elite to 10, then it becomes less likely that the spearman will beat the tank?

 

[Grey Knight]

Yes, it's been done before, and yes, it will work as you think. Go to the combat calculator, and change it to fight 10 HP vs 10 HP, and you'll see that this gives the higher attack rating better odds of winning.

It was an intentional design choice by Firaxis that a spearman should be able to defeat a tank.

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[Sim_One]

OK thanks for your confirmation Grey Knight.

 

[cgannon64]

Yes, it would work. But I think that would give powerful units even MORE power. A one attack difference would start to mean alot more.

CG

 

[Sim_One]

Originally posted by cgannon64
Yes, it would work. But I think that would give powerful units even MORE power. A one attack difference would start to mean alot more.

CG

Not a big problem there. Defenders already get so many bonuses (hills, fortify, river, cities, etc.) anyway.

 

[sumthinelse]

Adding hitpoints could also slow down the game. At some point late in the game you would want to turn off the combat animations.

 

[Grey Knight]

Yup. You also have to double the rate of fire for bombardment.

Ok for tiny, perhaps small, but on normal and larger maps you get the same effect generally, simply because you send in a larger stack of units (aka more HP).

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[Pillager]

I think that the values should change if you're fighting a unit from a different era. I had an Ironclad beaten by a Galley yesterday, and my suggestion would be that because the Ironclad is from a later era, it should have an automatic attack bonus against the Galley, e.g. increase its attack from 4 to 6 just for that one battle.

 

[Furry Spatula]

is the spearman beating a tank realy a problem? I mean how often does it happen? Someone made a map where there were two civs and battles were set up to test if the AI got unfair advanatages, and well the speaman won once every 20-30 tries or so i believe. I dont think there is a problem. The "problem" is with people in general and how they tend to forget when the times their tanks kill the spearman and remember the few times that the speaman beat their tank. And they also tend to thus lie and embelish and say it happens more than it did without realizing it.

Yup that does happen, I'm in some Criminology classes in University and that the biggest problem when it comes to "counting crime"

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I have found that setting HP at double the current numbers is a very good thing in small and tiny maps. Here, individual units play such a large role compared to larger maps that the Firaxis HP make the game too much of a gamble.

Also, I like to add 1 extra HP to elites (11) and giving a 1 HP bonus per advancement in the upgrade path.

makes for a very balanced game, since surprises are rare, but by no means too rare.

 

[Amask]

Originally posted by Pillager
I think that the values should change if you're fighting a unit from a different era. I had an Ironclad beaten by a Galley yesterday, and my suggestion would be that because the Ironclad is from a later era, it should have an automatic attack bonus against the Galley, e.g. increase its attack from 4 to 6 just for that one battle.

i like this idea very much;

 

[SirJethro]

Originally posted by S1m0ne


Not a big problem there. Defenders already get so many bonuses (hills, fortify, river, cities, etc.) anyway.

I disagree....it is a problem to make the offensive units more powerful than they are already. You refer to the bonuses that defenders get, but those are consistent with real life. If nothing else, they are conservative: A defender who is "fortified" is at least 25% more effective than one who is standing around with his spear up his you-know-what.

Units fortified in real life in hills and mountains (or fortresses or metropolises, etc., etc.) have much higher increases in effectiveness than the bonuses provided in this game.

If defenders didn't have real life bonuses that need to be built in (and protected) in this game, then Hitler would have beat the hell out of the French in Moscow.

In summary...."there is no tank vs. spearman problem". That spearman isn't a spearman anymore if it makes you feel better. It is simply one of those poorly trained and equiped resisters who throws a molotov cocktail down the hatch.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by SirJethro

then Hitler would have beat the hell out of the French in Moscow.

Was this the same war that the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?


Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[SirJethro]

Originally posted by billindenver


Was this the same war that the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?


Sorry, couldn't resist.

It appears you missed my point.

The French were beaten back by the Russian defenders long before the Germans tried it. If the defensive bonuses being discussed were not real-to-life, then Napoleon would have defeated the Russians. Regardless of the fact that WWII probably would not have happened if he had, Hitler would not have been fighting the Russians in Russia...he would have been fighting the French. And he would have won, because the same defensive bonuses defeated Hitler that defeated Napoleon.

 

[Pygzilla]

Originally posted by Pillager
I think that the values should change if you're fighting a unit from a different era. I had an Ironclad beaten by a Galley yesterday, and my suggestion would be that because the Ironclad is from a later era, it should have an automatic attack bonus against the Galley, e.g. increase its attack from 4 to 6 just for that one battle.

Whats the problem here. IMHO the Ironclads were not very sea worthy. A little rough sea and the galley wouldn't even need to fire a shot.

 

[DaDoo]

Just how often do you sent out tanks and expect to meet spearmen as defenders? I seriously doubt anybody would encounter this on regent level or above. Unless you purposely set this up in a scenario, I don't think it poses any problem.

 

[Yzman]

You will see it alot once you defeat the main force and they are forced to use backup troops.

 

[Yzman]

You will see it alot once you defeat the main force and they are forced to use backup troops.

 

[Grey Knight]

I once wiped out the stratgic resources of two civs, and then made peace. It was kinda funny to seen them warring with each other with Longbows, when they had Tanks a few turns before

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[Mad Bomber]

Simone:

Done some experimenting with HP's and the best I can come up with is a 2 HP bonus to a unit per era after ancient.

For example a vet horse would have 4 hp but a vet knight would have 6 hp and a vet calvalry would have 8. I did this because having too many hp slows down the game dramatically and gives too much power to the attacker. As the promotion levels already increase hp I dont think that they should be changed (as changing these would actually minimize what you are trying to accomplish)