A quick practice session with trading and bargaining

[Moonsinger]

Recently, there are couple players asking me how to keep up with the tech pace while getting rich at the same time. So I thought it may be fun to have a little practice session on that. While awaiting for the next game, let's have a little friendly learning competition here. The rule for this thread is as follows:

1. I will post a random save game and each of us will play zero turn (that means you can do whatever you want after you load the game but do not go to the next turn).

2. You must write down all the steps that you did and post the result here. A simple result would be fine; there is no need to upload your save game here.

The winner will be the one who have made the best possible deal or the best sequence of transactions. What do you really win? The reward = the experience to help you on your next game.

Let's play. In this save game (vanila Civ3 with patch v1.29f), your civ is falling about 6 techs behide, it's your job to bring your civ to even tech parity with the tech leader and to become the tech leader yourself. Feel free to make any deals with the AIs and post your transactions here. Please remember that all transactions must be made within the current turn. Have fun and good luck! I will post my result later. I'm sure we will have a lot to compare. Chances are I'm going to learn something new as well.

Note to Cracker: I'm not sure if this forum is appropriate for this thread. If not, please move it to wherever you think is appropriate. Thanks!

Moderator Action: Added the save file as an attachment to this post, as it got lost in the last site housekeeping - AlanH

 

[hotrod0823]

I love it! Sounds like a quick mini-mini game to me!

I can't wait to try this tonight!

 

[Shillen]

I think this is a really great idea! Especially the week before the deity GOTM, this should really help.

A couple concerns though. I don't think there should be any competition to it. Just post what you did, why you did it, and what the results were. I think people can compare with others and see how they could have improved without saying one person did better than another person.

One dilemma with trying to say who was 'best' is that you really can't decide that. There can be many different objectives to a trading session based on your overall game strategy. Do you want to sell your map or hold onto it? Do you want to trade contacts or keep everyone oblivious of each other? Do you want to save all your lump sum money for unit upgrades or just use it to buy techs? Do you want to trade all techs around to everyone? Or try to keep the other AI's as backwards as possible? Etc, etc..

But I think it's a great idea. Just no need to try to say one peron's trades are 'better' than another person's.

 

[Moonsinger]

// reserve for summary

 

[Moonsinger]

// reserve for summary #2

 

[pterrok]

I think this is a great idea and could become a standing monthly feature--The Trading Pit! It doesn't require moderator supervision, just someone to post the save file.

The main thing I would change, though, is to say NO RELOADING! Write down all the factors you looked at to arrive at the decisions you made to trade with this civ first and then that one. If someone else then comes up with a better result by trading in a different order we can dissect it and try to figure out why it came out better.

Since you're coming in cold to the game situation, you'll have a LOT of things to look at before pulling the trigger on that first trade, so you may not have time to go back through it again anyway. And it could require a LOT of documentation if there is a lot of trading possible--QSC timeline length if you're explicit.

Shillen, it COULD be set as a specific goal: Have the most tech improvement at the end, or have the most GP on hand, or have the most GPT, or the most luxuries, etc. This one Moonsinger seems to be saying to try and catch up in techs as much as possible. So two people who end up with the same techs could then be ranked based on those other factors.

This is a learning experience, NOT a competition, please, no wagering!

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Shillen
One dilemma with trying to say who was 'best' is that you really can't decide that. There can be many different objectives to a trading session based on your overall game strategy. Do you want to sell your map or hold onto it? Do you want to trade contacts or keep everyone oblivious of each other? Do you want to save all your lump sum money for unit upgrades or just use it to buy techs? Do you want to trade all techs around to everyone? Or try to keep the other AI's as backwards as possible? Etc, etc..

Well, if we don't trade with one AI, some other civs will. Therefore, by withholding tech, map, or whatever usually won't hold back that one AI for long. But you are absolutely right, sometimes, we need to hold back a little for our overal strategy to work. However, in this case, we are the backward civ and we have a lot of catching up to do. When we are at the bottom, we don't have much else to lose; so let's trade as much as we can.

Basically, in this game, I have shutdowned my research after I discovered Pottery. Some of the AIs are 2 techs away from entering the Middle Age, can we catch up to them without emptying our treasury? Basically in this game, we start out with around 700 gold at the beginning of the turn, I would like to see us getting at least 700 gold at the end of the turn while gainning all the techs plus the complete worldmap.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by pterrok
The main thing I would change, though, is to say NO RELOADING! Write down all the factors you looked at to arrive at the decisions you made to trade with this civ first and then that one. If someone else then comes up with a better result by trading in a different order we can dissect it and try to figure out why it came out better.

Good idea! That would make the practice game be more like the real game and that would also make us learn how to think more before saying yes to any deal. I will edit the original rule.

 

[Judge Dredd]

1. Noticing only 2 civs have contact with the Greeks, I trade World Map and 27 Gold for Greek contact from the English.

2. Trade with Zulu. We get Literature for Greek contact plus 137 gold.

3. Back to the English. Code of Laws for Literature and 6gpt.

4. Off to Russia. Philosophy and Babylonian contact for Greek contact and Code of Laws.

5. India trades Polytheism for Greek Contact, Literature, and Code of Laws.

6. Back to Zulu. Trade Mathematics for Polytheism, Code of Laws.

7. England seems to be the only one with Map Making. So, map making for Mathematics 10 gpt and 345 gold.

8. Russia: our World Map for their Territory Map and all their gold (21).

9. Persia: We get Territory Map plus 11 gold for Greek contact.

10. Bablyon's Territory for our World Map.

11. Egypt's Territory for Greek Contact.

12. World Map for World Map trade with Rome.

13. Our World Map for Greek World Map and 50 gold.

14. World Map for World Map trade with India.

15. Japan offers World Map and 1 gold for our World Map.

16. England now will pay 6gpt for our World Map.

17. World Map for World Map with Russia.

18. Zulu will pay World Map + 137 gold for our World Map.

19. Persia will pay World Map + 28 gold for our World Map.

20. Egypt: World Map for World Map.

21. Back to England: They will pay ANOTHER 2gpt for our world map.

End Result:

England : Equal techs
Russia: We lead by 4 techs
Zulu: We lead by 1 tech
Persia: We lead by 2 techs
Babylon: We lead by 3 techs
Egypt: We lead by 6 techs
Romans: We lead by 3 techs
Greece: We lead by 8 techs and they dont have Japanese contact.
India: We lead by 2 techs
Japan: We lead by 5 techs and they dont have Greek contact.

We have 514 gold in treasury and +18 gold per turn. The only civ with money in the bank besides us is England.

 

[Moonsinger]

Judge Dredd,

Well done! Exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread. Now let's hope someone else can come up with another approach.

 

[Smirk]

The things of note:
1. England is the only one with Map Making
2. We are the only one without contact with Babylon
3. We aren't in any position to war, but we are ahead in scoring and power.
4. The bulk of the civs are missing techs that others have, this will be our main trade oppurtunity (ie Mathematics and Polytheism). However, only England has any sizable gold on hand.
5. A few civs have contact with Greece, but they are all pretty weak so I am assuming Greece isn't a powerhouse.
What I think will work best is to pay gold for this in-between tech in the hopes of then trading them other techs to get our gold back. At a glance this would work with India and Zulu, and maybe some others.


renegotiate peace with Cleo, get contact with Hammurabi
* could get Mathemathics from Shaka for 440g
renegotiate peace with Shaka, get Mathemathics for 260g
* could get Polytheism from Gandhi for Mathematics and 60g
renegotiate peace with Gandhi, get Polytheism for Mathemathics, he has nothing else to give
renegotiate peace with Toku, get Philosophy and 1g
traded Shaka Polytheism for Literature and 20g
* could get Code of Laws and contact with Alex from Hammurabi for Mathematics, Literature and some gold
renegotiate peace with Hammurabi, get Code of Laws and contact with Alex for Mathematics
traded Shaka Code of Laws for 200g
* could trade Alex Iron Working for 50g
renegotiate peace with Alex, get 40g
* could trade Alex anything for his remaining 10g
* could trade Eliza Literature, Mathematics, world map and 265g for Map Making
renegotiate peace with Eliza, get Map Making for Literature, Mathematics, world map and 25g


Now at parity with tech leader which appears to be England with 771g remaining, and can now trade maps and hopefully get my 25g back and Eliza's stockpile.

Normally I wouldn't care this much about world maps, but for the sake of comparison I'll get everyone's world map.


traded Gandhi Literature and Code of Laws for his world map
traded Caesar Mathematics for his world map
traded Xerxes Mathematics for his world map and 20g
traded Cathy Mathematics for her world map and 5g
traded Toku Mathematics for his world map
traded Cleo Mathematics for her world map
traded Shaka contact with Alex for his world map and 20g
traded Eliza ROP for her territory map and 70g
traded Alex Mathematics and Horseback Riding for his world map and 10g
traded Eliza world map for her world map and 28g (all remaining)
* could swap maps with Hammurabi

Now I have most of the world map, except some pieces around Babylon and where ever Germany happens to be, I have 924g, no change in gpt. The breakdown of what can still be traded is below. Also only England has my map (which was the full map, minus Hammurabi's).

At tech parity with:
England

Civs that only need Map Making:
Zulu (has nothing)
Persia
India (has nothing)

Civs that need contact with Alex:
Russia (could get 16g)
Persia (could get 19g)
Egypt (has nothing)
Japan (has nothing)

Civs that do not have 20 turns of peace with me:
Rome
Persia
Russia
(Germany)


Since we aren't in a good position to start a war, the 20 turns will give us plenty of time to build up and then attack our neighbors. But even still within the next 20 turns we could get some world wars started against Rome, Persia and Russia. Although its possible to still renogiate peace with them for something, maybe ROPs or military alliances. In addition, there is a lot of room left wiht the other civs as well, trading ROPs and such, this would be useful if a world war is intended, but right now they are all broke with nothing to give.



Edit:
I don't think my contact with Alex list is complete, I don't remember trading any contacts so it should match whatever it was at the beginning of the turn.

 

[Moonsinger]

Ok, here is my result. I don't know if it's good or bad yet, but I did end up with more gold than I start out with and the almost complete worldmap and at tech parity with the tech leader.

1. Notice that England is the only civ that has Map Making and the Zululand is the only civ that has Mathematics. Since we really need Map Making in order to trade map, we immediately spend our life saving on Map Making. Pay 627 gold + Worldmap to England for Map Making

2. Since Egypt is the poorest civ, we may well get them out of the loop now. Trade our Worlmap with Egypt for their Worldmap + their contact with Babylon. Egypt is now totally bankrupted.

3. Trade our Map Making + our Worldmap with Rome for their worldmap + Polytheism + their contact with Greeks

4. Trade our Territory Map + Iron Working + Mysticism with Greece for their Worldmap + 50 gold. Greece is now totally bankrupted.

5. Trade our Worldmap + Map Making with Zululand for their worldmap + Mathematics + Literature. Zululand is now totally bankrupted

6. Trade our Worldmap with Japan for their Philoshopy + 1 gold + their Worldmap. Japan is now totally bankrupted.

7. Trade our Worldmap with India Worldmap. India is totally bankrupted.

8. Sell Literature + Mathematics + Worldmap to England for 494 gold.

9. Trade our Worlmap with Rome for Worldmap + Code of Laws. Rome is now totally bankrupted.

10. Trade our Worldmap with Rusia for their Worldmap + 21 gold. Russia is now totally bankrupted.

11. Trade our Worldmap with Persia for their Worldmap + 39 gold. Persia is now totally bankrupted.

12. Trade our Worldmap with England for their Territory map + 34 gold.

Summary:
Starting gold in treasury = 775 gold + 26 gpt.

* We are leading Japan 5 techs and they don't have contact with Greeks.
* We are leading India 4 techs and they don't have contact with Greeks.
* We are leading Greece 7 techs and they don't have contact with Japan, India, Egypt, Persia, Zululand, and Rusia.
* We are leading Rome 2 techs.
* We are leading Egypt 6 techs and they don't have contact with Greeks.
* We are leading Babylon 3 techs
* We are leading Persia 2 techs and they don't have contact with Greeks.
* We are leading Zululand 2 techs and they don't have contact with Greeks.
* We are leading Rusia 5 techs and they don't have contact with Greeks.
* We are tech parity with England; they end up with 172 gold in the end.

Final gold in treasury = 787 gold + 26 gpt. With the exception of England, we got everyone worldmap. England is willing to sell us their complete worldmap for 90 gold, but we don't want it because it's basically the map of their little jungle which is totally useless to us at the moment.

 

[Moonsinger]

Smirk,

I will have to do further study with your technique of renegotiating peace. I rarely use it because I don't want to get stuck with the peace treaty for 20 turns. However, since we aren't going to war any time soon, your technique has given us the best deal so far.

Overall, it was pretty amazing that we are all able to gain six techs, at parity with the leader, and extra gold without really doing any research ourselves. Hopefully, this thread may help someone who has trouble keeping up with the tech pace.

 

[Smirk]

Thats what my own gameplay has been based on the last few games. (ie studing the peace negotiation)

Actually in this game, 825BC, I would normally have done this at least 2 times with some of the civs. As a side benefit doing this allows you to control the game flow better, or make the civ pay dearly in the case where they break these treaties. (ie they are the bad guy from now on)

One down side is that there is what I consider a bug when these treaties are renewed, if you miss it and the civ brings it up, you can't get anything else in the deal! And it will still be a 20 turn deal, otherwise it just laspes and will be like the start where it lasts until war is redeclared. One good thing about doing it all during one turn is that you only need to remember one period.


Edit:
Hitting submit too fast today. BTW thats why I put the pre-trade results before the peace trade to help quantify how much peace was worth. I've generally found that in tech trades you can get 100g+ value from them, where if they had that same amount of real gold it wouldn't be the same. But saving 100g is the same to me.

 

[zagnut]

I downloaded this earlier today shortly after you posted it. Now that I am home I am glad to see that it is meeting with much enthusiasm. I traded without reading any of the other posts. I also didn’t reload except for a test of the effect of establishing an embassy with Rome.

1. I note that we don’t have any techs to trade but have lots of cash. All of the other civs have contact with Babylon. However, Rome also has contact with the Greeks. I notice that there are no embassies established. Before I establish an embassy with Rome I negotiate contact with the Greeks for 141 gold. Then before I conclude the trade I establish an embassy with Rome for 69 gold. When I return to try to trade again the embassy does not make any improvement in the negotiations. They still want 141 gold. After the trade their attitude has improved from annoyed to cautious. I do not know whether this is because of the trade or the embassy. Their attitude improves to cautious even without the embassy. Perhaps in the future the embassy will make negotiations easier.

2. I did not notice initially that we had contact with additional civs. I had 2 ? on the Foreign Advisor screen (F4). I contact the Greeks but they don’t have contact with anyone but Babylon. Also on the list of civs I have contact with is Russia, England and the Zulus. The Russians, Zulus and the English do not appear on the Foreign Advisor screen or on the Trade Advisor screen (F2). Apparently we have just met Russia. I check in with her and all she has is Philosophy, which everyone else has. BUT, the Zulus have Mathematics, which no one else has. They will trade Mathematics for 367 gold and contact with the Greeks. I make the trade.

3. Unfortunately, not everyone is falling over me to give me their techs in exchange for Mathematics. I trade Persia Mathematics for Literature and 18 gold, because none of the other civs have Literature, except the Zulus.

4. I then trade England Mathematics, Literature, World Map and 271 gold for Map Making and their Territory Map.

5. I trade India Literature, Mathematics and World Map for Polytheism and their World Map.

6. I trade Egypt Contact with the Greeks for Contact with the Babylonians and their World Map.

7. I trade Japan my Territory Map, Contact with the Greeks and Mathematics for Philosophy and their World Map.

8. I trade Persia Contact with the Greeks and World Map for Code of Laws, World Map and 21 gold.

9. I trade World Maps with Rome, plus they give me 141 gold.

10. I trade Greece Iron Working and Mathematics for their World Map and 50 gold.
11. I trade Babylon my World Map for their Territory Map. They have no gold.

12. I trade Russia Mathematics for their World Map and 21 gold.

13. I trade England World Maps, plus they give me 80 gold.

14. I trade the Zulus my World Map and Code of Laws for their World Map and 367 gold.

At the end of the trading I have all of the known techs and almost all of my money back (694 gold). I know the entire world. The only other civ with any money is England.

 

[DaveMcW]

Don't add gpt or resources to the peace treaty if you want it to expire "cleanly". And make sure "Always renegotiate deals" is unchecked.

There is a much bigger bug with peace treaties, you are allowed to pay gpt in a peace deal no matter how bad your reputation is.

 

[hotrod0823]

I tried but it crashed : Is this a huge map ??

I started by buying MM from England for 630 gold and WM and went from there to get Math and Lit from the Zulus and filling in the Map and the techs from the others until it crashed.

To start:

We know Egpyt, Rome, India, Japan and Persia with 2 unknowns. Current research is Math due in 16 at 10% science and 30% lux. The lux is clearly on to keep the Pyramid city happy. I cut Lux to 10%, and hire an entertainer and scientist in Shanghi and still pick up the pyramids next turn this gives a new +39gpt surplus.

Why is it that we know Russia, England and Zulu but they are not on the diplomat screen.

Any way:

England has: Philo, CoL, MM, Poly and contact with Greeks and Babs.
Russia has: Philo and contact with Babs.
Zulu has: Math, Philo, Lit and contact with Babs.
Persia has: Philo, CoL, Lit and Poly and babs contact
Egypt has just contact with babs.
Roma has contact with Greeks and babs, Philo, CoL, Poly
India has philo, poly and contact with babs.
Japan has contact with babs and philo.

1. Buy contact with Babylon for 35 gold from Japan - Babs have Philo, CoL, Poly and contact with Greeks.

2. MM and Math are monopolies look to get both first and trade down for the rest, Buy MM from England at 2nd prices, WM and 630 gold.

3. MM, WM, and 4gpt to Zulu for Math and Lit.

4. MM, WM to Persia for Polytheism, TM and his 39 gold.

5. LIt, WM to Rome for Contact with Greeks and CoL, and TM.

6. IW and WM to Greeks for WM and his 50 gold.

7.

 

[Shillen]

Goddess Moonsinger?

Survey the scene. Science is at 10% with 17 turns left on Math. Lux is at 30%. It appears only Shanghai needs the lux and the Pyramids are due in 1 anyway. I turn lux down to 10% and the Pyramids are still due in 1. Lots of horses so I assume we want to save cash for upgrades. England has a monopoly on Map Making, but lacks Literature. Zululand has a monopoly on Mathematics. Better change research since Math is already known, shut it off for now. Persia and Zulu have Literature.

1. Ok first order of business is buying contacts to lower tech costs. Since England has a monopoly on Map Making I assume they will come out as the strongest civ when the trading is done. Therefore I don’t want to buy the contacts from them. Rome is the only other civ with Greek contact so I buy Greek contact from Rome for 141 gold.

2. Ok Greece is backwards as expected. We’re up 3 techs on them. They have the other contact we need so they’re the obvious trading partner. I trade them Horseback Riding for contact with Babylon and their 50 gold.

3. Next I want to buy Literature to cheapen Map Making. Since I’ll need to get a monopoly tech from the Zulus I buy Literature from Persia. I trade contact with Greece and 132 gold to Persia for Literature.

4. Ok now it’s time to buy Map Making. I debate whether to give England gpt or cash. I don’t know how much cash I’ll be able to get back. I will be able to sell them Math and possibly my world map after I get other people’s maps. How much will math be worth at 2nd civ price? I check the tech calculator and it says 311 gold. I trade Literature, World Map, 313 gold, and 8 gold per turn to England for Map Making.

5. Now we buy the other Monopoly tech, Mathematics. I trade contact with Greece, Map Making, and 49 gold to Zululand for Mathematics.

6. Ok time to get my money back from England. Well the tech calculator didn’t work. She’ll give me 204 gold for Mathematics. I take it, maybe I can get some more when I trade for some maps.

7. Now the next most valuable tech available is Code of Laws. Persia and Rome have it and both have lots of cash. I trade Mathematics and Map Making to Persia for Code of Laws, 171 gold, and their TM.

8. The next most valuable tech available is Polytheism. I trade Literature, Map Making, Mathematics, and my TM to Rome for Polytheism, 141 gold, and their WM.

9. Now I just lack Philosophy. Russia is the richest civ with Philosophy. I trade contact with Greece, Code of Laws, and Mathematics to Russia for Philosophy, 21 gold, and their WM.

10. Ok Zululand still has some cash on hand so I need to trade for that next. I trade them Code of Laws for 49 gold and their WM.

11. Ok now it’s time to buy maps. Greece is the most backward civ and they aren’t visible on the map yet. I trade Mathematics and Iron Working to Greece for their WM.

12. Ok Babylon still isn’t visible. I trade Map Making and Mathematics to Babylon for their WM.

13. Egypt has the most blackness near them. Trade Mathematics to Egypt for their WM.

14. Now I sell my map to England and try to get my cash back. Sell WM to England for 180 gold. Darn they have 2 gold left.

15. Ok Persia still has a valuable map. Trade my WM for their WM.

16. Japan still has 1 gold and their map. Trade Mathematics to Japan for 1 gold and their WM.

17. Research set to the Republic and a scientist hired in Shanghai.

End result: Tech parity with leader, 957 gold, making 31gpt. Republic in 40 turns at min sci. Most civ’s are still extremely backwards. England, Rome, and Persia are at tech parity. Zululand is down Polytheism. Babylon is down Literature. Every other civ is down 3 or more techs.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by hotrod0823
I tried but it crashed : Is this a huge map ??

Yes, it's a huge map.

 

[Shillen]

I guess I should have traded my world map more. I think that's how you guys kept the other civ's farther behind in tech. I only sold my final WM to England. If I had traded WM more instead of techs I'd have kept them more backwards. But that wasn't stated as an objective anyway. Also I still have those maps to trade once a civ learns a new tech or comes into some money.