A quick practice session with trading and bargaining

[Bamspeedy]

3) The AI seems to not get much real value from learning them. I haven't withheld maps in a long time so I'm not sure. But when I tried it in early days it didn't seem to make any difference. This is perhaps partly because the AI can't squeeze full advantage from the info and partly because it seems to already "know" some things such as resource locations without having the maps.

In some situations you can actually hurt the AI by selling/giving them maps. Any AI units that are out exploring, work the same way as when you have a unit on 'auto-explore' (keyboard shortcut is to press the 'e' key) and they bee-line for any unknown tiles. If you give civ A the entire map of Civ B's territory and surrounding lands, then Civ A won't send any exploring units in that direction and won't meet Civ B, thus won't make contact. Of course, later on they may send a settler in that direction and 'accidently' make contact or if CivB happens to be in path between you and CivA when CivA sends some units at your territory (war or sneak attacks), but sometimes that won't be for a very long time.

In my HoF game there was 2 civs that were next door neighbors on a pangea map but didn't contact each other until like 3-400 AD, and that was just by accident when they sent a unit to attack a city I had just captured (a couple turns later I killed off the one civ, so they almost never met each other). The hard part is making sure *every* tile is exposed, because of sea tiles that are only visible from 1 specific land tile, but that isn't a problem if you have a bajillion scouts like I did and you trade maps every turn (so other AI are picking up the isolated tiles you missed).

This could work well on island maps if Civ A or B had their whole island settled, so the AI would have no reason to go there. On lower levels if you had a huge tech lead, you could get the whole oceans explored before the AI got astronomy/navigation, and then sell maps and they will have a hard time ever meeting someone, because the AI does not know how to use units for the sole purpose of meeting someone (that they know where they are!)

 

[Ambiorix]

Great idea Moonsinger !
I was thinking of something like this when I posted my .sav file in the second spoiler thread (Warning : don't go there if you don't meet the req's for the second spoiler thread of Gotm19 !).
I had a go without reading the posts here and came out with all techs, 491g and +41gpt, and the world map. Not the best, so I suppose you don't want the details (I'll post them if anyone asks).

I'll read over the other posts here as soon as possible - very interesting ! Thanks folks.

 

[Qitai]

Here's mine.

First, get contact with Greek/Babylon. They might have map making or Maths!

Rome>141gc for Greek
Greek>Mysticism for Babylon +50gc

Nothing New so time to get map making

England>627gc + WM for Map Making

From here on, trade WM in reverse order of civ tech advancement to maximise gain. (Each trade nets you a bigger WM to trade with the next more advanced civ)

Eygpt> WM for WM
Greek> WM for WM
Japan> WM for WM + Philo + 1gc
Russian> WM for WM + 21gc
India> WM for WM + Poly

(Tried to trade with Babylon at this moment, but the WM is worthless to them. Looks like England already sold it to them for maybe Code of Law?)

Rome> WM for WM + Code +141gc
Persia> WM for WM + Lit +39
Babylon> WM for WM
Zulu> WM for WM + Maths
England> WM + Lit + Maths for WM +570gc

End result 829gc. Only traded Mysticism to Greek; Lit + Maths to ENgland.

Reminding possible trades
England RoP for 75gc (England is too far to have any troop moving over within 20 turns)
Peace gold drain (Only England has 130 gold left but there is no hurry since gold is only usable for upgrades in Despotism and England Iron is not hook up. If you use the RoP free gold, that means England has only 55gold left)
Remaining new WM to all civ
Zulu - Code, Poly - He will almost definitely get them in next turn by trading maths away anyway. Giving him these tech means other civ may not get maths, just to slow down trading.
Give excess tech to AI just to make them polite or use them for war.

 

[Qitai]

Zagnut>Establishing Embassy has neligible impact to trading. So, it is pointless to establish embassy before you are done with the trading except for the purpose of hoping that a RoP can net more gold than the cost of establishing the embassy or MA.

Yndy> My experiences so far. RoP turning point is when they have more land than you. Peace turning point is when they have more power than you. (i.e. You pay when they have more land or power, so that is how to judge if a negotiation will give you gold or you have to pay)

Smirk> Turn the Auto-negotiated off. And don't put in any 20 deals along with the peace re-negotiation. Putting any 20 turn deals along with the peace re-negotiation means AI will automatically re-negotiated anther 20 turn at the end of the first deal.

 

[zagnut]

Originally posted by Qitai
Zagnut>Establishing Embassy has neligible impact to trading.

So I see. But at the time I started trading I could not remember whether it did or not. So I tried it. Now I will remember that for the future.

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by zagnut
Can I correctly state the strategy as follows: don't trade, except for some early first level techs, until you have built up a good stash of cash and wait until another civ discovers Map Making so you can get the value from trading maps.

To my mind that is a good general guideline. It shouldn't be treated as an absolute, there are a number of exceptions, but as a general rule that is how I like to play it. Exceptions I can think of:

1) As you've noted, first level techs should usually be considered an exception. On most maps the AIs will get them for free by trading with each other so if you make early contacts where trades are possible you might as well make those trades.

2) If you really want a particular tech. E.g. Pottery to build a Granary.

3) If you want a very fast tech pace.

4) If the map isn't one which favors this approach (holding off till Map Making) then some earlier trading can be important. Moonsinger's map in this thread is an ideal one for map trading - big, pangaea, a good number of Civs. At the other extreme on a small non-pangaea with few Civs map trading won't be worth a lot. And then it becomes more important to trade some techs earlier on to avoid falling too far behind. But still I'd say that applies only to tech trading - I wouldn't be buying techs for straight cash just to stay caught up.

5) There's an earlier trading turn which I often find is a similar turning point on a smaller scale - the turn when someone discovers Writing. On that turn, if you have contacts to sell, and the Civs involved are likely to meet each other soon, I think it is good to have a similar trading session to this Map Making turn - go around the table and catch up some tech by trading contacts. I also often include some tech trading in that turn. If I know Civs with separate techs and figure they'll meet soon, then I figure they'll trade those techs. So I try to broker the techs in the contact trading turn to get a commission on the deal

 

[Smirk]

Originally posted by Qitai
Smirk> Turn the Auto-negotiated off. And don't put in any 20 deals along with the peace re-negotiation. Putting any 20 turn deals along with the peace re-negotiation means AI will automatically re-negotiated anther 20 turn at the end of the first deal.

My own advice, is to just pay attention. There are times when I want to use a 20 turn item, like a luxury, or gpt. Its just an oddity of the game, I just try to remember to check. Its not too hard in PTW since you can see all actives with just a click.

 

[Renata]

@ zagnut: To add to what SirPleb said -- if you want to get the most out of tech trading at the advent of mapmaking, you'll want to at least have Writing (mapmaking prerequisite) by that point. Otherwise you won't know when mapmaking is first discovered, and you'll lose your opportunity. In my somewhat limited experience, though, that's the only tech past the first row that you need to have to make the most of the opportunity, since generally the AIs get mapmaking before any other third-row techs.

@Moonsinger: thanks, great idea for a thread. I've learned a few things. Since I'm out of town I decided to just go straight to the spoilers instead of waiting several days to 'play'.

Renata

 

[Ronald]

Here is my trading sequence:

1 England trade WM + 627g for mapmaking
2 Rome trade WM + mapmaking for contact with greece + WM + philosophy
3 Greece trade WM for contact with babylon + WM + 50g
4 Persia trade mapmaking + contact with greece for literature + WM
5 Persia trade WM for code of laws + WM + 39g
6 Russia trade WM for WM +21
7 India trade WM for WM + polytheism
8 Zulu trade WM for WM + mathematics
9 Japan trade WM for WM + 1g
10 Egypt trade WM for WM
11 Babylon trade WM for WM
12 England trade WM for WM + 206g

Depending on my goal I would now either stop: I'm technology leader with 465 gold
Techs ahead: Japan 5, India 4, Greece 8, Rome 2, Egypt 6, Babylon 3, Persia 1, Zulu 3,

Russia 5, England 2

England is the only other civ with money, or trade for higher tech pace and more money:
13 England trade literature + mathematics for 365g

Result: Tech leader + 830 gold

edit: after reading the spoiler I renegotiated peace with England for 129 gold (all they had)

Result everybody is broke I have 959 gold no debt to anybody

 

[AlanH]

This is a great exercise, Moonsinger. I haven't read any of the replies yet, but here's my shot at it. I only made a small profit and finished up equal tech leader with England and Rome:

First target: Get additional contacts first as this will reduce tech prices.

1. India sells Babs contact cheapest at 32, and this will reduce price of Greece.

2. England sells Greece contact at 91 Price was previously 137, so I saved 46 [error edited] by buying separately in sequence.

Second target: Buy the scarecest techs - Maths, Lit and Map Making, to trade around.

3. Buy MapMaking from England for 549 + W/map + ROP. ROP available because we have an Embassy, and is low risk because they are far away, and it saves over 100 on the deal.

4. Buy Maths + Lit from Zulu for Map Making + W/map + Greek contact.

5. Sell Maths and Lit to England for Territory map + 348. Did this before trading anywhere else to keep the price high. This to get back some of our investment cash and to increase the value of our world map.

6. Buy Phil + Poly + Code of Law from Rome for Maths + Map Making + Lit + W/map. *Improved from Annoyed to Cautious.

We now have equal tech lead with Rome and England, and just need to build our world map to sell to recover our cash position.

7*. Sell contacts with 5 civs to Greece for 50 + W/map.

8*. Sell Territory map to Persia for 34 gold.

9*. Swap W/maps with Zululand

10. Buy Babylon W/map for W/map + Math + Map Making. *Improved from Annoyed to Cautious. This leaves Babylon needing Lit in the tech race, to reduce the Great Library competition a bit.

11. Sell W/Map to Japan for W/Map + 1.

12. Buy W/Map from Egypt for our Territory map.

13. Sell complete W/map to England for 189.

14. Sell W/map to Russia for 21.

15. Sell W/map to India for 31.

16. Sell W/map to Persia for 5.

We have 782 gold, 7 more than we started with. We are equal tech leaders with Rome and England. England has 104 more gold than before. Everyone else is cleaned out.

@Moonsinger: Thanks very much for organising this, it was a great idea. A couple of questions - Is this a typical game position for you? Does difficulty level change the position at this stage of your game much?

All comments welcomed. I really hope to learn from this one.

Now I'll read the rest of the replies and see how badly I did!

[edited]Apologies. When transcribing my scribbled notes I missed out a couple of the map trades and omitted the two civ attitude improvements I achieved. Now corrected (asterisked * above)!

I also noticed in reviewing the sequence that I should have taken 33 more gold from England by moving the last Persia map trade (step 16) to before the last England map trade (step 13) and making it a W/map swap..

 

[tao]

Originally posted by Yndy
Some of the trades that we demonstrate here will not work on deity (at least at the start) because you probably won't get the opportunity. You won't have larger territory to sell ROPs and you won't have larger power to leverage it for cash. I wonder what happens if you try to renegotiate peace and they are stronger than you.

Luckily, even on deity there are civs perceived weaker. In my current deity training game for gotm20 I immediately put the peace negotiatiom to use. And it works very well.

PS: Regrettably Moonsingers save didn't open on my Macintosh 1.29b2 but reading this thread alone was very helpful.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by tao
S: Regrettably Moonsingers save didn't open on my Macintosh 1.29b2 but reading this thread alone was very helpful.

It loaded fine here - 1.29b2 in OS X 10.2.6. How did it fail? What OS are you running? It's a large map with more than 8 civs civs, so if OS 9 you might need more memory assigned to Civ3.

Your practice game looks great so far. Much more successful than my Indian practice starts have been. And no Conquest mode bonuses to help you!

 

[Yndy]

Originally posted by tao
Luckily, even on deity there are civs perceived weaker. In my current deity training game for gotm20 I immediately put the peace negotiatiom to use. And it works very well.

You got a nice game going there. I have also started a deity training game and I'm not doing that good. Some things I have learned not really related to trading (my peace renegotiation only gave me World map for free):
-When starting the first war get someone on your side no matter the cost-
I have been fighting for 30 turns and have gained one city but killed four AI units for everyone I lose, but the AI keeps pumping them faster than me.

Moonsinger, are you going to do something with the summary reserved posts?

 

[Greebley]

In my most recent practice game I had a huge trade opportunity. I was curious if I did ok. I was NOT able to catch up on tech. I was wondering if I just did it wrong or whether I was just too far behind. This is a deity game. I just made contact with the other continent.

I got one middle age tech, but at a gpt cost when

This is 1.21 PTW.
complex trade example

Edit: It occurred to me that one mistake I probably made was doing the trading this turn when I have a chance to meet Egypt as well next turn

 

[Bamspeedy]

Ok, take a look at situation to see who has what techs, and who has contact with who.

We are #1 in territory size (demographics screen), so others will pay us for ROP.
We are #1 in power rankings (histographic screen-Power), so others will pay us for peace.

England values the ROP at 73 gold (minimum).
Renegotiate peace with England.
England gives Map making for ROP, WM, 306 gold.
We want mapmaking to make map offers in other deals with other civs.

Egypt has very little to offer, so give her World map for her world map + Contact with Babylonians.

Japan has little to offer, also.
Renegotiate peace for philosophy, World map, 1 gold for my world map.

India has little to offer, now.
Renegotiate peace for Polytheism, world map for my world map.

Give Rome World map for Contact with Greeks, Code of Laws, and World Map.

Give Greece World map for his world map and 50 gold.

Renegotiate peace with Babylon and exchange world maps with him.

Give Persia world map for Literature, world map, 39 gold.

Give Zulu world map for Mathematics, world map.

Give Russia world map for 21 gold and world map.

Give England world map and mathematics for 379 gold, world map.

End Result:
959 gold, no debts, no income from other civs.
The only thing I gave AI was maps and 1 tech to England. (and gave some civs 20 turns of peace)
Tech leader.
Everyone's world map.
Every AI is broke.

What the AI needs that I could donate:
England- literature.
Russia-5 techs, contact with Greece.
Zulu-3 techs, contact with Greece.
Persia-2 techs, contact with Greece.
Babylon-3 techs.
Egypt-6 techs, contact with Greece.
Rome-3 techs.
Greece-9 techs (polytheism not shown), contact with 6 civs.
India-4 techs, contact with Greece.
Japan-5 techs, contact with Greece.

If I want to, I could establish embassies in every civ and sign a ROP, and get everyone polite.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Greebley-If you don't mind trading contacts, then I got you 3 techs into the middle ages:

Give Germany world map + 109 gold for Contact with Egyptians.
Contact with Egyptians was the cheapest price and will give us another civ to sell our world map to, and will de-value the price of future contacts/techs we want to buy.

Give Egypt world map for contact with Indians, territory map, 3 gold.

Give India world map for contact with Babylonians, territory map, 45 gold, 3 gpt.

Give Babylon world map for contact with Aztecs, territory map, 68 gold, 1 gpt.

Give Aztecs world map for horseback riding, Philosophy, 5 gold, world map.

Give Russia world map for Code of Laws, Polytheism, world map, 17 gold.

Give Korea world map for Currency, world map, 16 gold, 4 gpt.

Give Japan World map and currency for Construction, WINES, world map and 88 gold.
edit: Oops, didnt' realize you were 1 turn from hooking up your own wines

Give Rome world map, contact with Babylonians for Feudalism, 28 gold, 1 gpt.

Give Egypt Fuedalism, contact with Japanese, for Monotheism.

Give Russia Monotheism for Republic, Monarchy, Engineering.

Give Germany contact with russians, korea, romans, japanese for 151 gold + 44 GPT!!

Give contact with russians, korea, romans, japanese to India for 35 gpt.

Give Babylon contact with Russia, korea, japanese for 12 gpt.

Give Korea Monotheism for 12 gpt.

Rome has Invention and Babylon has Theology. Both have a monopoly on those techs, so will charge unbelievable prices. Nobody has anything to offer, and we do have some contacts we could hold for trading or donations.

We have everyone's world map, 455 gold, 112 gpt coming in from other civs (+137 net income with 0% science). 3 techs in the middle ages, and picked up an additional luxury.

 

[SirPleb]

Greebley:

Your save sure is a challenging one, it is a very complex trading turn indeed. It is an excellent example for Moonsinger's principle of it taking money to make money. If you'd had a lot of money (maybe more than would have been possible) on hand I think I could have done better, you'll see why in the following notes. Here's my trading sequence (I played it through in one try, on looking back at who has what I think a slightly better sequence is possible.) A main principle I followed was to hold back contact between the continents. That should be worth a lot of money for a good number of turns in the game's future.

Germany: maps+109g for Egypt
Egypt: maps for India+terr.map+3g
India: maps for Babylon+terr.map+44g+4gpt
Babylon: maps+77g+5gpt for maps+Aztecs
Russia: maps for Currency+Philosophy
Japan: Currency for CL+Polytheism+maps+33g
Korea: maps for HR+16g+16gpt+maps
Japan: maps for Construction+55g
Aztecs: maps+108g+25gpt for Monotheism
Russia: Monotheism for Feudalism+Engineering+17g+Monarchy

At this point I saw that I'd blundered. There is no way I can get Rome to part with Invention. If I could finance a deal for that then I'd recover the cost on the other continent and have all tech to date. As things stand I've let loose Monotheism on the home continent, I haven't got Republic (because I figured on getting it free for one of the most advanced techs), and I can't get much further.

So to finish the turn as best as possible:
Rome: Monotheism for Republic+maps+28g+1gpt
Japan: Monarchy for wines

Final result: Got all Ancient Times tech, three Middle Ages tech, all contacts and maps, one more luxury. Did not trade contacts between the continents, expecting to profit greatly from that in future. Have 45g in treasury and paying a net of 12gpt to other Civs. (Paying 33, getting 21.) Advanced Rome and Russia by one tech and sold all maps.

BUT, I decided to push it a few turns further to see what could be done with the isolated contacts. Flipped to Republic, then played two turns (couldn't do anything in 170BC.) In 150BC I was able to make more good trades. To make them I first had to move almost every citizen in the empire onto the highest possible gold producing tiles (gems etc), to get a high gpt to bargain with. (A purely temporary move, to be fixed before ending the turn, it is just to get some leverage during the turn, getting gpt up to 60.)

Rome: maps+60gpt+100g for Invention
Babylon: Invention for 137gpt
Germany: Invention for 49gpt+132g
India: Invention for 59gpt

Now the situation looks better! Net income from other Civs is up to 173gpt (paying 93gpt, receiving 266gpt.) We and most of the other continent now know Invention. Can't make a good deal for Theology yet but contacts remain controlled and the future looks promising from this point...

I also tried going back to the starting save and played one turn forward without doing anything, hoping one of the galleys would be able to meet Egypt. That worked and we also meet Babylon and India in that turn, presumably because Germany traded our contact. A much better trading sequence followed:

Egypt: maps for Aztecs+terr.map+Philosophy+8g
Aztecs: maps for maps
Russia: maps for Currency+41g+1gpt
Japan: Currency for CL+Polytheism+maps+34g
Japan: maps for Construction+18g
India: maps for maps+HR
Germany: maps+241g+21gpt for Monotheism
Korea: Monotheism for Feudalism+Engineering+7g+14gpt (@@@ should've added Monarchy?)
Rome: maps+Monotheism+2gpt+18g for Invention
Babylon: Invention+maps for Theology+maps+80gpt+195g
Korea: Invention for Republic
Japan: Republic for 30g (just to get her economy boosted)
Egypt: Feudalism for Monarchy
Germany: Invention for 45gpt+240g

Final result: Got all techs and maps, 482g in treasury, net income 114gpt from other Civs, and kept contact restricted.

 

[Smirk]

Originally posted by SirPleb

And actually, to digress a bit, this whole thread sure is interesting! It is timely for me. I've been thinking for a while of writing an article on trading, with a special focus on this often crucial trading turn. I've got some scratchy notes started but it has a long way to go, I find it a tough subject to organize and generalize.

I gave it some more thought and have now come to the same point you are at, but from a different direction. The maps hold no value and change nothing about the AI, the only reason they seem overvalued, is because their value has been arbitrarily set by the designers/programmers so that the AI won't just give them away for free (like they used to do with workers). But by the same token you can get thats same value from the AI, sometimes. I think there is an artificial modifer in there since I can never get the same gold that the AI often wants in a pure gold for maps trade. While maps for maps seldom need more than a few gold to offset one side or the other.

 

[Ribannah]

Without the sleezy and compromising peace negotiations (Moonsinger's game):

[1] Babylon (Egypt) for $33
[2] Greece (Babylon) for $93
[3] Map Making (England) for $627 + WM
[4] $50 + WM (Greece) for Iron Working + Mysticism + Horseback Riding
[5] $33 + WM (Egypt) for Greece
[6] $83 (England) for WM
[7] WM (Russia) for Greece + $125
[8] WM (Japan) for Greece + $30 + TM
[9] $31 (England) for WM
[10] WM (Rome) for $53 + TM
[11] $3 (England) for WM
[12] Mathematics + WM (Zululand) for Map Making + WM
[13] $204 (England) for Mathematics
[14] WM (India) for Greece + $85
[15] WM (Persia) for Greece + $96
[16] $48 (England) for WM
[17] Literature + $7 + WM (Persia) for Mathematics
[18] $161 (England) for Literature
[19] WM (Babylon) for Mathematics + $79
[20] $42 + WM (England) for WM
[21] Code of Laws + Philosophy + Polytheism + $128 (Persia) for WM
[22] $172 (Babylon) for WM
[23] $146 (Russia) for WM
[24] $85 (India) for WM
[25] $53 (Rome) for WM
[26] $31 (Japan) for WM

End result: we have $831, everybody's WM and all the available techs.

England is the only one with money left ($128); they would pay $75 for a ROP (or the full amount to stay at peace with us).

parity: England
1 tech behind: Persia
2 techs behind: Babylon, Zululand
3 techs behind: Rome
4 techs behind: India
5 techs behind: Russia, Japan
6 techs behind: Egypt, Greece

Egypt got no map, Greece only has our TM and Zululand only a partial WM.

 

[Yndy]

That's very interesting. I was kind of hopeing to see something like that but I did not had one. Thanks Greebley.
Start 143g and 25gpt
Step one: I trade maps to the 'old' world for some cash.
Then contact with Egypt for WM+110, contact with Babylon and Territory from Egypt for WM+20g. Contact with Azteca+Territory+25g from Babylon for WM. Contact with India+WM for WM+25g from Azteca. India pays Currency, WM, 40g and 3gpt for WM.
Japan lacks Currency and are willing to pay Polytheism, Philosophy, Horseback riding and 15g for it. Japan lacks Monarchy, so I buy it from Korea for WM+11gpt. Japan pays COnstruction and Code of Laws for Monarchy and 65g.
We're in the Middle Ages and tech parity with Japan. A very interesting opportunity appears. In the old world, Russia, Korea and Rome have Republic, Eng and Feudalism. In the new world, everybody has REpublic, Eng, Monotheism and Feudalism (with the notable exception of Egypt who lacks the latter).
Buy Feudalism from Russia for literaly all we have WM+17 gpt +40g.
Egypt won't give Monotheism for Feudalism. WE lower lux to 0% for 11gpt, sell the map again to the new world for 42. WE give Feudalism, 11 gpt and 30g for Monotheism.
Korea is happy to pay Republic, Engineering and 27 gpt for Monotheism at monopoly price .
Rome has world monopoly on Invention and Babylon on theology.
In a complex deal we give up our contacts.
Rome pays Invention, 1gpt, 20g and ROP for Monotheism, WM, and all contacts.
Japan pays Wines, 130g and ROP for the WM to have worldwide knowledge of it.
Babylon outbid evrybody and pays 61gpt and 40g for the privilege of having invention at 3rd (they would not sell monopoly theology for anything).Germany pays 150g and 49gpt for Invention. India pays 40 gpt + 4g (they're clean).
Russia pays 15gpt, 52g and ROP for Monotheism.
Babylon pays 26gpt for three contacts, Germany 6gpt for one, Egypt 3gpt +46 g for two.
I gift all the remaining contacts to get people polite with me.
At this point I could start a worldwide war Sir Pleb style but I do the summary instead.
We're down one tech from Babylon (the only ones who still have money)
We're at tech parity with Rome, Germany and India.
We're 1 tech ahead of Russia, Korea, Egypt and Azteca.
We're 5 techs ahead of Japan.
We have the world treasury of 455 and 228 gpt (231gpt other civs+71gpt cities-42gpt to other civs
The world map as it is known and ROP with our close neighbours.
We got an amazing 12 techs. It took 75 minutes of RL to do all this. On a sidenote, Sirpleb you were of course right to not trade contacts.