Advice Please

[Tribute]

It would be best if Beorn, Jokeslayer, and denyd did not look at this thread until they all have embassies with me. This thread is in regards to the PBEM we are playing.

If you are one of these,
Beorn
Jokeslayer
denyd

please leave this page. Thank you.











































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3 turn settler factories. Am I crazy? Perhaps.

In this multiplayer game, I am playing against the Dutch (Beorn), Jokeslayer (Korea), and denyd (Iroquois). I am the Persians.

We all started with food bonuses (presumably a wheat or cattle each). I have found out that I am on a continent with Beorn and that Jokeslayer and denyd should be together on a faraway continent.

Anyway, I believe that I will fall behind in expansion because with Beorn's (and to a lesser extent, denyd's) agricultural trait, they will be able to have 4 turn settler factories. And since that +1 fpt applies to all their other towns, (and I'm pretty sure they have >1 food bonus), they can easily expand at a rate of 1 town per 3 turns.

So I must at least match that. And I can, but at great cost. Since I have 4fpt, (irrigated cattle), I can do a 6 - turn settler factory. The terrain around me has little in the way of food, only 2 grass wines and 2 plains wheat. So if I were to do a 6 - turn settler factory and 2 other towns helped, the going would still be too slow to catch up to Beorn.

I have decided to add workers to my capital in an attempt to get a 3 turn settler factory!!! I actually can do 10 spt in size 5 or 6.

Of course, other towns will aid in producing workers (I need an average greater than 1 every 3 turns, obviously). And the high food towns will also produce settlers on occasion. Every new town will have to produce 2 workers before going on to build other things (sending one to the capital). Though of course, the sending does not have to be immediate, they could road their way to the capital, making the effort all worthwhile.

Let's compare:
If I do a 6-turn factory, I can make 3 warriors (assume veteran) and a settler. Assume settle after 5 turns of move (an average). After 10 turns, a worker can be generated from settled towns. Obviously, this is good for warmongering, but will end up being quite bad in the Republic if I don't have war, which I probably won't. Could replace 2 warriors with a spear or 3 warriors with an immortal if the time comes, but that is not too important.

Wa=Warrior S=Settler Wo=Worker T=Ready Towns (done producing initial worker)
Turn 0 Wa: 0 S: 0 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 3 Wa: 3 S: 0 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 6 Wa: 3 S: 1 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 9 Wa: 6 S: 1 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 12 Wa: 6 S: 2 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 15 Wa: 9 S: 2 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 18 Wa: 9 S: 3 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 21 Wa: 12 S: 3 Wo: 1 T: 1 //First worker
Turn 24 Wa: 12 S: 4 Wo: 1 T: 1
Turn 27 Wa: 15 S: 4 Wo: 2 T: 2
Turn 30 Wa: 15 S: 5 Wo: 2 T: 2
Turn 33 Wa: 18 S: 5 Wo: 3 T: 3
Turn 36 Wa: 18 S: 6 Wo: 3 T: 3
Turn 39 Wa: 21 S: 6 Wo: 4 T: 4
Turn 42 Wa: 21 S: 7 Wo: 4 T: 4
Turn 45 Wa: 24 S: 7 Wo: 5 T: 5
Turn 48 Wa: 24 S: 8 Wo: 5 T: 5
Turn 51 Wa: 27 S: 8 Wo: 6 T: 6
Turn 54 Wa: 27 S: 9 Wo: 6 T: 6

With my 3-turn factory. Same 5 turns to settle. 10 turns to worker. And now 3 turns to move worker back (roads are made in the process by other workers). 2 workers are made before declared a ready town. 1st worker is sent back.
Assume I can actually do the initial worker usage rush.

Wa=Warrior S=Settler WoU=Workers Used WoS=Workers Being Sent Wo=Workers T=Ready Towns (done producing initial worker)
Turn 0 Wa: 0 S: 0 WoU: 0 WoS: 0 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 3 Wa: 0 S: 1 WoU: 1 WoS: 0 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 6 Wa: 0 S: 2 WoU: 2 WoS: 0 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 9 Wa: 0 S: 3 WoU: 3 WoS: 0 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 12 Wa: 0 S: 4 WoU: 4 WoS: 0 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 15 Wa: 0 S: 5 WoU: 5 WoS: 0 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 18 Wa: 0 S: 6 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 0 T: 0//First town's first worker
Turn 21 Wa: 0 S: 7 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 24 Wa: 0 S: 8 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 27 Wa: 0 S: 9 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 30 Wa: 0 S: 10 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 33 Wa: 0 S: 11 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 36 Wa: 0 S: 12 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 0 T: 0
Turn 39 Wa: 0 S: 13 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 1 T: 1 //First town ready
Turn 42 Wa: 0 S: 14 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 2 T: 2
Turn 45 Wa: 0 S: 15 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 3 T: 3
Turn 48 Wa: 0 S: 16 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 4 T: 4
Turn 51 Wa: 0 S: 17 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 5 T: 5
Turn 54 Wa: 0 S: 18 WoU: 6 WoS: 1 Wo: 6 T: 6
...


Obviously, 3 turn has a faster growth rate (but a slower start). And only 54 turns (18 settlers) before it equals the first in terms of ready towns and workers. Of course, I have to be able to pay the original 6 worker debt, but that's easy enough with the aid of my other towns.

But since I really can't do the initial worker joining thing. I will have to resort to a hybrid. Use the top case for 6 or 12 turns, and then do the bottom case, easily enough.

The question now becomes if the towns that aren't supporting my capital would do better making settlers for the 54 turns or making MP, workers, and settlers the whole time.

So I must ask, am I going too far? Should I just go with the 6 turn and expand normally? Or should I attempt the crazy 3 turn settler factory? Or hybrid? Suggestions? Comments? Please respond.

 

[Hasdrubal Barca]

I´d say you made a mistake in joining those workers, you have 2 plains wheat around and 1 cow in cap??? man thats just excellent, irrigate them asap (cow is already done as you say), have you finished a granary yet? Chop forests for a grany/barracks.

Do you have iron nearby??? You are Persia...so build vet warriors asap and control the iron, sell techs and luxs to the others, send out warriors to kill barb huts and accumulate money, then upgrade your Immortals.

Let them expand faster if they want, concentrate on what you are best - , Grany, Barracks, Vet Warriors, Workers, Iron, Immortals. All other is for medieval era.

Choose a target, build a road to him and go kill.

 

[Tribute]

Well, I haven't done any of this yet. I was just wondering.

I have a granary and cattle (irrigated). The wheat and wines are 1 to 2 towns worth away from my capital. Can be used for worker farms or other settlers. (1 Size 2-4 10 turn settler factory at wheats and 1 Size 3-4 5 turn Worker factory).

Actually, I could probably do a 3 turn settler factory and 2- 5 turn worker factories supplying it.

Ideas?

I do have iron about 1 town away.

And since there are no AI, going to war would be bad; I might fall behind in tech with the other continent (corruption) Though logically, I could do it....

I see your advice is to make a rax and then do the 6 turn factory. The idea of war though is interesting. Very interesting....

 

[Tribute]

Actually, upon further reflection (and spreadsheets), joining workers seems quite bad. Though it did sound like a good idea at the time.

I could do 1 6-turn and 2- 10 turns. Or 1 3- turn and 2 supporting towns.

1/6+1/10+1/10 > 1/3 and a couple of extra workers. Enough said. Plus, the 6-turn gives me lots of military. First option gives 1/30 extra settlers and 1/2 warriors, and the second only gives 1/15 extra workers. So obviously....

Why can't Civ have benefits to worker joining?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

You are persia. You are industrious and you have the mighty immortal.

Sure, you'll fall behind Beorn. Find iron, build immortals, and use the fact that he expands faster to give YOU cities.

 

[Theryman]

Falling behind Beorn is not the problem. Immortals will even that out in blood. What will he do when he meets the other two players and they are in the IA and he is the MA? He will get crushed, that is what. He needs to keep Beorn alive as a trading partner.

Use that to your advantage, Tribute. Beorn knows he needs you, too. So feel free to fall behind a bit early on- he won't kill you. But be sure to be ready to take your rightful spot as continent dominator before your immortals become useless.

 

[Tribute]

Oh, I was just imagining using a warrior blockade to "dominate" my continent.

Theryman is right, if I completely defeat Beorn (or go to war in any way), our tech rate will slow down, I'll win but get corrupted lands, or Beorn will refuse to cooperate (or be unable to research) with me any further.

Of course, the last point is double-edged. If he expands too far, I can threaten war and which means a double loss for our continent. That way, I suppose his growth can be considered limited.

I'm pretty confident both continents are quite far apart. So suicide curraghs must be used to cross. Hopefully, Beorn won't resort to that too soon.

So my plan will be to use my 2 cities (capital = 6-turn settler factory; 2nd city = curragh, then worker, then Pyramids town [Beorn will allow me to get this]) and then expand 2 more times ....

Oh, why don't I just show a pic?

Here.

Expand to the dots near the wheat then wines. My worker in my capital will bring roads to the wines, then irrigate down there. In about 15-20 turns, this can be done, with another town settled near the wines. The irrigation will also be brought there. The wheat town will begin with settlers, the wines town with workers. Another town must settle near iron hill to allow the wheat town access to the other wheat (so it can become a 10 turn settler factory)

Eventually, they will level out at 2-4 and 3-4 respectively. With 1 MP and 1 lux, they should be fine at 10 or 20% lux. Capital is 4-6 (10 spt at all times), after all. With the dyes lux up there connected, I can reduce lux to 0 to 10% after.

And odd, if two towns share the food bonuses. That is, I have 4 towns each taking one 3 fpt tile. Then essentially, I am agricultural. I wonder if I should play that game.

What do you think?

• Is my dotmap fine? (spacing tight enough?)
• Is my plan any good?
• Should I pretend to be agri?
• Am I forgetting something?
• What is the turn estimate before our continent is filled?
• When should I expect the other continent to be reached?
• Which way should my curragh go?
• Am I done asking questions yet?

 

[RickFGS]

You have two warriors in your cap? send one to cover the iron asap, you never know who might get there....

Dont connect the iron for a long time, build vet warriors, try to get lots of money from barbarian huts, send pairs of reg warriors out to keep patroling north to south, keepém moving in order to barb apear.

Those forests are your life! Try to follow the rule of having 2 workers per city, you should have 4 workers by now! First build in the new cities should be a grany and a worker should be going for the chop when the city is founded.

Is Beorn to the south?, 2 reg warriors on mountains for sentry net is priceless also.
Pop the goody hut south of iron with a scout, not the warrior.

I think this plan is better, but thats just me...

 

[Tribute]

Yes, 2 reg warriors in my capital. But I don't think that someone's just going to pop a city on the iron. There are no AI around, and Beorn has agreed not to move units (settle) in a range up to there. As far as he knows, no iron tile exists near my capital.

Good idea on sentries. Since I'm doing the 6 turn, I'll have a lot of warriors going around soon. Yay for popping huts. It'll also help on my unit support. As for workers, I lost my first one due to not knowing how PBEM's work. Apparently, workers finish their tasks when they have 1 turn left. In other words, if I start a road, the next turn it will be done, but the worker starts with its turn ended. Half convenient, but half annoying since I lost my first worker to a barb that way. Once I get a settler to the wheat, and then one to the wines, I've got that covered.

Your dotmap is a bit closer than mine. But it sacrifices good tiles and makes my core a bit close. It also delays my dyes. However, it does give me the idea of sharing the cow tile. But since I can only get to 10 spt while using the forest tile, such sharing would be limited; I have to do 3-3-4 instead of 2 (share here) - 4-4. Of course, that dotmap will allow me to put in more cities, so who knows which is truly better?

And the pic is a bit out of date, by 5 turns or so. A new one in a moment.

 

[Hasdrubal Barca]

Closer cities mean less corruption also...

 

[Tribute]

There's the map of my lands. Lower south, I'm not too sure who gets what. But we'll know soon.

According to my spreadsheet, wines at the end of 6 turns, 11 more turns to have irrigation prepared for my wheat town (which will have built 1 warrior and 1 worker by then and started a settler).

After that settler, my capital will finish a rax by the end of 7 more turns. Then I can make another settler in 3 turns and start the 6 turn factory.

So in 10 turns, my factory is ready!

But what should I do with The Kitchen?

 

[Tribute]

Servant's Hall: Settler next turn. Next Settler in 10.

The Kitchen: Curragh in 2. Should I build a worker or a settler next? Or a warrior next?