Ahrrrgl - Balance problem

[YinYang86]

Hello everybody,

Well, I am lost with correct balances in Civ V.

I am just playing an archipelago map (more fun to me) but, in order to have enough space, I chosed a huge map, low sea level, 8 players.

After 140 turns I have 7 cities and have maintained so far balance between money and happiness. In fact, I chosed to limit the growth of my cities (+1 to 3 foods) in order to occupy space (that is to create new cities).

For the moment, all works well. My position is 2-3 average in the statistic datas. But I've just looked forward to happiness buildings and realised that the next helpfull building will be theater (not that far on the science tree, which is good) but that for the next + 1, I'll have to wait until I discovered radio, that is far, far away in the science tree.

So my question is : how to bridge between theater and radio ? If I follow the same strategy, I mean 1-3 foods per city and creating one city from time to time, I'll be short of hapiness very soon.
In fact I wonder if I did not caught bad habits from Civ IV, III and II.
I mean I give priority to space. Maybe the good balance in Civ V is to play on a pretty small map, at last normal, aiming at 5 to 7 cities to the end of the game...

What did your experience taught you ? Is 8 players on a huge (even if archipelago) map pretty stupid ?

Thanks for your answers and forgive my rough english from France

YinYang

 

[Derpy Hooves]

Played a single archapelago purely to try out Polynesia and gave up halfway due to sheer boredom so can't comment on that one.

On Earth (and probably continents as well) you need 12 Civs as an absolute minimum on huge, or it will take a pretty long time for anyone to get aggressive.

And if I'm warmongering (which generally requires a lot more happiness) I just fill the gap with wonders and policies, Piety has some good ones, and get the happiness boosters from Tradition and/or Liberty, wonders to rush for are the Notre Dame, Forbidden Palace and some minors (CH and TM give happiness but only as a secondary).

 

[bcaiko]

The balance you're looking for comes from Social Policies and trading for luxuries. A dearth of happiness can defintiely be incentive to explore and meet new Civs on your map to trade and/or buy the favor of CityStates. As I recall, there are several Social Policies that increase your happiness; Piety is the king of these happiness bonuses, if you don't mind giving up Rationalism. Rationalism, Honor and Order all have happiness bonuses in their trees, as well.

On mid to high levels, you're almost certainly going to run into unhappiness at some point, but keeping abreast of the above can help mitigate that.

 

[joncnunn]

In addition, exploring to find the natural wonders will help happiness.

And yup, every single tree has some way of increasing happiness.

 

[MrHerpyDerp]

Nortre Dame seems to be the wonder for you, and if that doesnt keep you 2 or 3 (from each side) to 0 then maybe your cities might be growing a little too much. When all else fails the last poilcy in the Merchant tree on the right side gives +1 Happy from all lux resources.

EDIT: Also try to figure out the problem of unhappiness (Not enough lux resources or population etc) and try to adjust to combat those. If you got too many people, try and build the forbidden palace (-10% unhappiness from population in all cities I do think.) If you need more resources sell of extra ones for a set that you dont have

 

[YinYang86]

Thank you for all your answers. In fact, I already know much of strategies like making use of wonders, social policies and buildings...

My questions are rather more comprehensive and general. Since one has to deal with this happiness limit, which is somewhat heavy notably because of the long period from theater to radio :
- usually, how many cities are you able to sustain ? How many people in them ?
- is not a huge map for 8 civilization too large, even an archipelago one, I mean isn't it too much space in wich every civilization can expand without having to fight for it ?

In fact, I am looking for the right tuning between space, cities development and happiness.

YinYang

 

[The_Quasar]

I would say that with an archipelago map, you need more, not less civs, as they tend to intermix less on that map type.

For your huge map, I hope you chose Ottomans, and by the time you're at, you should already have a fleet of at about 20 ships, which cost you only the initial one (especially if you chose raging barbarians). This will give you a huge boost finding wonders and other civs.

You didn't say what level you're playing on, so I'll assume it's Prince or King. The happiness level you're seeking is really a function of this level. The higher the level, the more difficult to keep a balance. If the level you're playing at makes happiness too difficult to manage, drop down a level and try that. After a while, when you have gained more experience, you'll be wanting to go up a level again, which should be easier then.

The higher levels are all about balancing things, especially happiness, which is why most of us stick to only a few cities at those levels. The lower the level, the less this matters.

 

[YinYang86]

Thanks The Quasar. A very interesting comment !
It means to me that Civ remains a game in which balance is the main interest - and a thing to aim at.
In fact, I am playing at Prince level. And when you write : "...which is why most of us stick to only a few cities at those levels..." that gives me the understanding of how much Civ V is different from its predecessors... That is : there is no obvious strategy like space occupation.

Feeling it's the good way to play, I already began a game on a much smaller scale than a huge map with 8 players, that is aiming at 5 to 7 cities at most. It will probably be much more balanced, and gives me opportunities to fight and deal with other civilizations...

You gave me a very good advice !
Thanks a lot.

And, as usual, sorry for my average english coming out of France !

YinYang

 

[Ranos]

Civ V is vastly different from its predecessors and so you have to treat it differently.

In previous versions, ICS was easy to accomplish and really the ideal way to go. Luxuries in IV gave 1 happiness per city each (2 with certain buildings) so it didn't matter how many cities you had, they each had equal happiness. Certain wonders also gave 1 happiness per city.

Roads and railroads were no problem because they gave you gold. The only thing you had to watch out for with ICS was corruption, which could be reduced and managed in a number of different ways. It also took a while to be a problem.

In V, none of that applies. Luxuries give a flat 4 happiness each. That can be boosted by a coupld of different policies, but not by much. This means you are limited from the start in how many cities you can have. There are more wonders that give happiness but these only help to a certain extent and you have to invest a lot to get them and pick them over other wonders that can help in other ways.

Roads and railroads no longer give gold, they take it so you can't have roads everywhere. It isn't even necessarily smart to connect a newly constructed city until it has grown large enough.

In general, the settings that civ starts with are the most balanced settings available. I'd say on a huge map you could adjust the number of civs by 2 either way and not throw balance too far off. After that, there is too much empty space.

So 8 civs on a huge archipelago map is too few. First because of how many civs you removed but then also because archipelago maps are capable of sustaining more cities than continents. If anything, you should increase the number of civs on an archipelago.

In addition, building more than 3-5 cities is not necessarily a good idea because of the increased cost for policies as well as the time it takes to get you national wonders. Build only a handful of cities and then capture a bunch from other civs and puppet them. You get extra culture, though not much because of the geniuses at 2K patching the game at some point and making it so puppets won't build anything more than a monument. You also get extra gold and, if you can keep the population of the puppets down enough, extra happiness.

Archipelago is also not the best map to play because of the AI's inability to invade other landmasses. It just can't figure out how embarkation is supposed to work.

So I would suggest sticking with the default settings and avoid playing on island maps.

 

[MrHerpyDerp]

I dont even build roads on a Arch map. As long as I am lucky all my cities can be planted on the coast.

As for the topic, try and find the great reef I think that gives happiness for being in your boarders. The one with all the pretty gems sticking out of it is worth lots o cash and gives happiness. Best of both worlds (and you'll find on higher level games you need cash.)