AI and hunters phenomenon. (Plus a few questions)

[hiphopin]

It seems that in this game the AI LOVES, and I mean LOOOOOOOVES to build hunters. Almost to much. You know it makes me mad when they litteraly have 50% of their entire army as hunters, now don't get me wrong, hunters aren't bad, but c'mon HALF your army with them? Do they even KNOW the concept of champions?

The reason I bring this out is because so many AI players tend to overspam hunters instead of champions or other tier 3-4 units. It ends up being a easy as pie fight. So often do I see a city with 2 archers a warrior and about a dozen hunters for defence, making it absolutly trivial to take.

So can the FF dev team make the AI tend to favor building champions and other tier 3-4 units instead of hunters or rangers most of the time, as of now its rediculous! It's a smaller change but the results could be drastic. And emphasise more archers for defending citys. The AI seriously needs a good mix of defenders. A champion or two and a few archers with one cannon/catapult is so much smarter.

Two more things, does the AI know how to bombard units with their archers in FF? I am pretty sure I have not seen them do it as of yet. And two what's the point of cannons/catapults attacking citys if bombarding has the same effect? Is it now pointless to actually attack? If so why does the AI still do it with their catapults/cannons instead of just bombarding?

 

[Arctic Circle]

Yes the AI bombards with archers. Or so I remember.

 

[Sarisin]

I posted in another thread about the AI spamming barb Archers very early in a game. I've found this plethora of Archers ONLY bombards rather than attacks.

Quite annoying really and those Archers can be damn hard to kill in the early game when they are on a hill.

 

[Humakty]

I've seen some good mix of units in my ongoing FF game. A 1/1 ratio of hunters and swordsmen I think.(Faeryl Viconia's army)

 

[Brokenbone]

<SNIP>And two what's the point of cannons/catapults attacking citys if bombarding has the same effect? Is it now pointless to actually attack? If so why does the AI still do it with their catapults/cannons instead of just bombarding?

Attacking gets you XP, bombarding doesn't. So in order to promote catapults, you end up putting them at some risk... the promotions for siege weapons though, are hardly worth it when bombarding does a pretty good job.

 

[Breez]

It seems that in this game the AI LOVES, and I mean LOOOOOOOVES to build hunters. Almost to much. You know it makes me mad when they litteraly have 50% of their entire army as hunters, now don't get me wrong, hunters aren't bad, but c'mon HALF your army with them? Do they even KNOW the concept of champions?

The reason I bring this out is because so many AI players tend to overspam hunters instead of champions or other tier 3-4 units. It ends up being a easy as pie fight. So often do I see a city with 2 archers a warrior and about a dozen hunters for defence, making it absolutly trivial to take.

So can the FF dev team make the AI tend to favor building champions and other tier 3-4 units instead of hunters or rangers most of the time, as of now its rediculous! It's a smaller change but the results could be drastic.

I only see this when they have not gotten Axemen yet. Once they have axemen/champians they seem to me to use them.

I wonder if you are seeing the AI get hunters before axemen, and they have a stock pile on hand still when you attack them. Until they get axemen Hunters are the better option.

And emphasise more archers for defending citys. The AI seriously needs a good mix of defenders. A champion or two and a few archers with one cannon/catapult is so much smarter.

Have to agree with that.

Does the AI Upgrade units? If they have 10 warriors when they get Axemen do they pay to upgrade them, then again at champians?

does the AI know how to bombard units with their archers in FF? I am pretty sure I have not seen them do it as of yet.

I see it constantly. I agree with Sarisin

I've found this plethora of Archers ONLY bombards rather than attacks.

I had 1 then 2 then 3 archers bombarding 1 city for 50 turns as waves of melee units attacked before I could finally get a relief force up to clear them out. Every archer that showed up to the siege stopped to bombard instead of attack.

It seems to me as if 1 in 5 archers are given the attack command while 4 in 5 get the bombard command.

 

[Vehem]

Two more things, does the AI know how to bombard units with their archers in FF? I am pretty sure I have not seen them do it as of yet. And two what's the point of cannons/catapults attacking citys if bombarding has the same effect? Is it now pointless to actually attack? If so why does the AI still do it with their catapults/cannons instead of just bombarding?

Attacking gets you XP, bombarding doesn't. So in order to promote catapults, you end up putting them at some risk... the promotions for siege weapons though, are hardly worth it when bombarding does a pretty good job.

Also - the catapults/cannons are able to ranged attack too and deal collateral damage when doing so. The result there is that they are excellent at weakening a city's defenders, even when there are a large number present. A stack of archers needs to outnumber the defenders in order to do sufficient levels of damage, cannons can do it with half as many or less.

The promotions should also increase the damage done by ranged strikes, so "risking" a couple of direct attacks vs an already damaged defender will result in (a) additional damage on the defender because the direct attack damage cap is higher than the ranged attack cap and (b) experience toward a promotion that makes both ranged and direct attacks more potent per attack.

The AI should probably favour siege-bombardment in cases where the defender isn't already weakened however - that's one to look at.

 

[heisenberg]

A slightly separate issue on AI's recon units though, at higher difficulties when they pick up free promos, ALL of their recon units pick up animal subduing.
I mean I'd understand them picking up animal on a few hunters to tame animals, but not all the rest which are garrisoned in their cities

 

[Vehem]

A slightly separate issue on AI's recon units though, at higher difficulties when they pick up free promos, ALL of their recon units pick up animal subduing.
I mean I'd understand them picking up animal on a few hunters to tame animals, but not all the rest which are garrisoned in their cities

Aye - it's easy to tell the AI that "this is a good promotion", but harder to tell it "this is a good promotion sometimes, but only if you don't already have some units with it.."

That being said, the AI is being worked on, so things may improve...

 

[heisenberg]

yea don't worry bout that... its just a minor issue--just pretty amusing when you end up attacking a city full of animal trainers... which might make some sense if they were bals

 

[Breez]

The promotions should also increase the damage done by ranged strikes, so "risking" a couple of direct attacks vs an already damaged defender will result in (a) additional damage on the defender because the direct attack damage cap is higher than the ranged attack cap and (b) experience toward a promotion that makes both ranged and direct attacks more potent per attack.

Do Siege units gain Xp if they successfully withdraw from an attack?

 

[heisenberg]

I believe they do

 

[BeefontheBone]

Less than for winning, but yes they do. I think you get 1 xp for defending against such a thing too though.

 

[Vehem]

Do Siege units gain Xp if they successfully withdraw from an attack?

I believe they actually get full XP if they withdraw after reaching their damage cap. Units that attack and withdraw due to reaching low health (such as mounted units) receive some, but not all that they normally would.

Haven't checked the amounts extensively, but they definitely get some in both cases.

 

[xienwolf]

Reasonably certain what I remember from that section of the code is that withdrawal is all treated the same, if done by low damage chick-syndrome or damagecap pansy issues I do know that the actual XP value listed for a unit in UnitInfos is only considered in the case of a unit being killed. So either damagecap withdrawal means no XP or it means the standard 1 for withdrawing.

Also, both sides get XP in a withdrawal now, not just the attacker.

 

[Sarisin]

Less than for winning, but yes they do. I think you get 1 xp for defending against such a thing too though.

I don't think so. This has been a pet peeve of mine in FFH/FF, especially when you are at war with a civ that withdraws/flees often (Hippus, Illians, Sidar, etc.) or waves of attacking/withdrawing barb Wolf Riders/Goblin Chariots and the like.

As far as I know, the defender doesn't get any XP when a unit bounces off following a withdrawal. Only the attacker gets the XP. This doesn't make sense to me as you would think the defender gets some experience from the battle too.

 

[Humakty]

I do often use catapults, and it seems to me too that they do get full XP when retreating because their damage cap as been reached.

 

[hiphopin]

OK, that clears up most of my questions, thanks to everyone. I do need to ask, why do animals have to be SO scarce? Seriously, their should be a much higher spawn rate, and it should be more consistant. It makes hunters/rangers really really pointless after about the halfway mark in the game. The only thing useful with them is for countering Baron Duin and taking out beasts (the few that their are).

 

[Sarisin]

OK, that clears up most of my questions, thanks to everyone. I do need to ask, why do animals have to be SO scarce? Seriously, their should be a much higher spawn rate, and it should be more consistant. It makes hunters/rangers really really pointless after about the halfway mark in the game. The only thing useful with them is for countering Baron Duin and taking out beasts (the few that their are).

hiphopin, it really depends a lot on your game settings. For example, in my current game I have stocked my six cities all with the required five animals to build the Grand Menagerie. Too bad you can only build one.

I am in Turn 550 of an Epic speed game on a Huge Fantasy Realm map and the open spaces are crawling with all those animals as well as Griffons, Spiders, and Elephants. They seem to be spawning at least as much as the 'regular' barbs.

There are only 5 civs left on the map so there is plenty of space for the animals to spawn.

 

[zup]

I prefer crowded maps for early and lot of conflict. I need lots and lots of xp to free Brigit. After that I usually quit rather soon because she can beat the AI herself.