AI Peace term irregularities

[Berrern]

I have a question regarding AI's peace negotiations.

I thought it worked like this; if you cripple him severely, or take his capital, he'll give you (almost) whetever you'd like for peace.
This has been the case for all games I can remember.

However, yesterday I tried my first Emperor game, Tiny Pangaea with 15 civs. Egypt and France were two of my neighbours, and in the Middle Ages, they both had a large capital, plus 1 small city (size 1 or 2). I declared war, conquered both their capitals, and after a few turns they accepted my envoy, and peace negotiations could start. However, the stupid idiots wouldn't even give peace for peace - they wanted one of MY cities to end the war!

What the hell is this? They had 1 very small city each, and only a few units - while I had 5 cities and over 20 offensive units, and 2 Hoplites in each city! Plus, I had taken their capital and crippled them severely.

Of course, I told them to shove their peace suggestion where the sun don't shine, and easily conquered their remaining cities with ease - which resulted in both civs being eradicated. Stupid idiots.

Now, at first I thought that the AI was not only more difficult, but also more stupid (lol) at the higher levels, and accepted this fact.
But a bit later (20 turns or so), I did the same thing to two other civilizations, and they offered me everything they could to end the war!

What's up with this? What determines the AI's willingness to end a war when it comes to giving/receiving techs/gold/cities?

 

[davidcrazy]

i guess the game is programmed this way that you cannot ask for anything from an AI repeated by conquering it and then sueing for peace... so normally the first time you sue for peace they'll give you everything you need and later on it'll become harder and harder just because AI KNOWS even if they give you everything that only makes you stronger and will conquer them again and again and ask for more... so their only choice is not to agree to your terms even though they are much weaker than you.

 

[sealman]

That really does not answer the question. in the senario described by Berren, the first civs did not agree while later in the game, others did.

 

[Keaka26]

Yeah, I was just playing, and I had the americans down to 4 cities. I asked if they wanted peace, and they offered all of their gold + all of their cities (minus their new capital obviously). Their last city was on a huge tundra...size 2 city that wasnt going to expand...hahah...

But there has been a couple random times with similar situations where the AI will not pay me to allow them to survive. So I just wipe them out. Is there a rep hit for wiping out a race?

 

[smackster]

I think the algorithm for determing what they want is based on how much you destroyed of theirs relative to how much they destroyed of yours. And how recently you did it.

Suing for peace the turn you take three of their cities is a good way to get the best deal, but wait 3 turns after taking them and its a different game.

Maybe their capital was weak and you lost a lot of units taking it. To the AI that might even it out.

Another factor is simply time, as I sometimes find I can get stuff from the AI, even if I never killed one of their troops. On an Island map, declare war on a far off Civ, get an alliance with their nearest neighbour. Wait 20 turns, or until your ally breaks the alliance and you will probably get lots of gold for peace.

 

[alamo]

The AI behavior is not always rational, especially at higher levels. Techs are way overvalued, so I would not expect to get communism.

In this case, it must be your poor reputation with them. SMAC was much better in this situation - they would capitulate and swear an allegance to you.

 

[Berrern]

I've done some more research on this issue now, and Smackster is absolutely right.

If you lose a lot of units compared to them (which is normal, if they've got a good defense in their cities), they wont give into your demans, because they feel that they've "won" even though they lost a very important city.

This "theory" applies to the scenario I described in my first post too - the first 2 civs I conquered was by using only attacking units, which resulted in heavy losses.
However, when I went after the other civs I brought a huge stack of Artillery along with my attackers, and managed to capture the cities without any losses.

Also, the time aspect is really important. If too much time passes between capturing their capital and suing for peace, they wont give in to your demands. The AI will rarely talk to you the first few turns after you've declared war, which means that some turns will probably pass after capturing their capital. I found a "workaround" for this though - especially in my scenario above - which is to declare war, put your SoD next to the capital, and not attack before they are willing to accept your envoy. Once they're willing to talk, trash the capital (hopefully with minimal losses), and sue for peace - they'll give you almost anything (especially if they only have 1 more city, as in my scen.)!

 

[davidcrazy]

I found a "workaround" for this though - especially in my scenario above - which is to declare war, put your SoD next to the capital, and not attack before they are willing to accept your envoy. Once they're willing to talk, trash the capital (hopefully with minimal losses), and sue for peace - they'll give you almost anything (especially if they only have 1 more city, as in my scen.)!

wow this is a cool strategy! i don't think it's mentioned even in the war academy. Berrern, if you can elaborate on your article and make it a little longer it may find a spot in the academy!

 

[Raijer]

I thought it worked like this; if you cripple him severely, or take his capital, he'll give you (almost) whetever you'd like for peace.
This has been the case for all games I can remember.

While I have certainly seen what you describe above in many games, I have also seen incredible suicidal behavior from the AI as well. In my current game, I reduced China to one city, with a massive stack of death knocking right at the gates of that same city. Nevertheless, China refused to talk to my peace envoy! Of course, he was wiped off the map on the next turn.

What's weird is that, in the very same game, the same exact Civ-suicide was commited by the Babylonians, the Romans, the Eygyptians, the Germans, and the Zulu. Every time the situation was the same: one city with a stack of death right outside the gate. Only the Japanese responded to my diplomacy attempt.

 

[smackster]

There appears to be a random period of time before they will talk to you, which does not change based on what you do to them.

 

[binyo66]

The AI behavior is not always rational, especially at higher levels. Techs are way overvalued, so I would not expect to get communism.

I got the same experients. Monarch level, Russia was at war with everybody. Everybody except me had Communism. Eventhough Russia was dying, she didnt want to give communism for peace I finally got communism (I really dont care about that tech), but in exchange with other tech (and not russia).

 

[MinutiaeMan]

I had a very strange (and annoying) thing happen to me, along a similar vein. I was at war with the English, and in an alliance with the Russians had completely kicked them off the continent and left them with one pop-1 city on a remote island.

After taking the last continental city, I sued for peace. Elizabeth was willing to pay up to 65 GPT for a peace treaty... but I declined, because I remembered just in time that signing the peace treaty would break my alliance with the Russians. I decided I'd rather avoid the rep hit.

So what happens next? Catherine breaks the alliance instead and makes peace. And so, on the next turn, I contact Elizabeth again. This time, she refuses to pay a single GPT for the peace treaty. Go figure.

 

[Tomoyo]

I had a very strange (and annoying) thing happen to me, along a similar vein. I was at war with the English, and in an alliance with the Russians had completely kicked them off the continent and left them with one pop-1 city on a remote island.

After taking the last continental city, I sued for peace. Elizabeth was willing to pay up to 65 GPT for a peace treaty... but I declined, because I remembered just in time that signing the peace treaty would break my alliance with the Russians. I decided I'd rather avoid the rep hit.

So what happens next? Catherine breaks the alliance instead and makes peace. And so, on the next turn, I contact Elizabeth again. This time, she refuses to pay a single GPT for the peace treaty. Go figure.

Most likely Lizzy paid Cathy GPT for peace, so couldn't afford to pay you too.

 

[binyo66]

I had a very strange (and annoying) thing happen to me, along a similar vein. I was at war with the English, and in an alliance with the Russians had completely kicked them off the continent and left them with one pop-1 city on a remote island.

After taking the last continental city, I sued for peace. Elizabeth was willing to pay up to 65 GPT for a peace treaty... but I declined, because I remembered just in time that signing the peace treaty would break my alliance with the Russians. I decided I'd rather avoid the rep hit.

So what happens next? Catherine breaks the alliance instead and makes peace. And so, on the next turn, I contact Elizabeth again. This time, she refuses to pay a single GPT for the peace treaty. Go figure.

Go allied with Catherine again (with lux), she got double rep-hit and would be in problem with other AIs

 

[Berrern]

wow this is a cool strategy! i don't think it's mentioned even in the war academy. Berrern, if you can elaborate on your article and make it a little longer it may find a spot in the academy!

Thanks
I'd like to do some more testing before writing an article about the issue. I'd love to write one though; I'll try to finish it this weekend, after running a series of tests on my various savegames!