AI Should Respect Your Territory

[Arkaynnus]

it's always annoyed me how the AI will disregard your territorial borders by sending units through your territory, but they'll be ragging on you even if one of your units is in their territory at turn's end.

it doesn't matter how strong you are compared to the AI Civ: if you're strong and they're weak, or you're weak and they're strong, they'll still move thru your territory without hesitation, and if they do so with significant force -- 5+ units -- they'll never leave willingly, they'll declare war.

the AI should be more open to offering and accepting Right of Passage agreements, especially if the AI wants to cross your territory, like to strike an enemy on the other side. after all, with a RoP, the AI can take advantage of your road and rail networks, greatly accelerating travel across your territory.

in the game i'm currently playing i watched the Carthaginians' Infantry trudge thru my territory for 10+ turns, moving one square at a time, in a long chain, just to reach the Aztecs -- and 'cuz they were deployed piecemeal, their attacks were easily defeated and they were slaughtered. then, i finally convinced them to agree to a RoP, and they were able to use my railroads and they were thru my territory in ~2 turns, and their combined attacks were finally successful. so why wouldn't the AI WANT a RoP, especially since it wuz in their best interests? BTW, it wuz also in MY best interests 'cuz i wuz planning to attack them while so many of their units were preoccupied in the south -- i wanted to speed them thru my territory so they couldn't counter-attack the small garrisons in my central cities when i invaded their territory.

i find that on the More and Most Aggressive AI settings, the AI Civs have absolutely no respect for your territorial borders, and i think this should be changed 'cuz the AI has a dreadful double standard of violating your borders but not allowing you any leway in crossing theirs. if they want to cross your territory, they should first come to you requesting a RoP, and they should be willing to offer you something for it, since it will help them more than it will help you. if you refuse, THEN i suppose it's understandable that they move thru your territory anyway and risk a war.

 

[SummerStorm]

I've found that annoying also. It also bugs me that you have to ask them several times to get out before the get our or declare war option comes up & they never leave until you get that prompt.

 

[Renfield]

I have found that without a RoP agreement I can "herd" the AI troops where I want.

If they are headed to beat on a rival AI I usually leave them alone, but for instance if they are heading towards a resource I will herd them. It's pretty easy just roll out a few units - it can be ANY units - and occupy the squares around the AI's units except for the direction you want them to go. The AI will not declare war on you for this and therefore wont march over your units, rather try to walk around your units. So box 'em in and steer them where it is you want them to go.

 

[Qitai]

What is actually even more annoying it that if I try to cross an AI territory to (attack a foe) without ROP (because the Tech is not out yet (in Sengoku)), they ask me to leave. But the AI's would gladly allow other AI's troop to pass through them in masses to attack me without asking them to leave. And because of that, I can only defend and not attack. Whilst my foe happily cross the other AI territory to attack me. The stupid in-between AI is only 3 tiles thick but enough to stop me from crossing through.

On units passing through your territory, you can actually ask them to leave if you want to most of the time. Only problem is that they may declare war on you.

 

[Arkaynnus]

that doesn't always work, especially if they have fast units and there's a lot of them.

like i said in my anecdote, the AI Civ wuz moving their units piecemeal across my territory, in stacks no larger than two units a piece, and formed a long chain from my border to their destination. it would've taken 20+ units to wrangle them and herd them away, and i couldn't spare those units at the time.

also, sometimes it isn't clear whether they're launching a invasion or merely passing thru ur territory. in the same game, the Americans moved 30+ units into my territory, which appeared to be an invasion force. assuming they were going to attack and vastly outnumbered me, i didn't dare demand they leave, rather tried to improve relations. i succeeded in getting them to sign a Mututal Protection Pact, which would prevent them from betraying me and attacking right away. i also convinced them to enter into a Military Alliance against the Incans, to divert their possible invasion forces.

a few turns later i realized their invasion force wuz sent to attack a single Aztec city at the north-west corner of the continent. a few turns after destroying the Inca, the Americans declared war on the Aztecs and dragged me into a war with them.

now if they had just revealed their intentions by requesting a Right of Passage agreement, there wouldn't have been need for any of that.

also, herding and blockading doesn't always work -- if the AI Civ has sea transports they'll use them to outflank your blockers and infiltrate your territory. this is particularly annoying when Expansionist Civs deploy Settlers to occupy the gaps in your territory, 'cuz they'll do absolutely anything to get there.

the problem is that the AI is absolutely paranoid about agreeing to RoP. basically, if you've attacked any Civ EVER, they'll refuse a straight-forward RoP, and only agree if you bribe them with Trade Goods, Techs, or Gold. they'd rather move thru your territory without permission and risk a war than grant you free access to THEIR territory -- despite the fact that they can take advantage of your transportation networks with a RoP.

 

[Arkaynnus]

Originally posted by Qitai
On units passing through your territory, you can actually ask them to leave if you want to most of the time. Only problem is that they may declare war on you.

we know the risk of war in asking them to leave, that's the problem. the problem is that you're only have 3 choices:

1) let them slowly trek thru your territory;
2) demand they leave and incur a war (this is all but guaranteed on the aggressive Ai levels;
3) bribe them to get a Right of Passage.

these are all poor options. like the thread's topic says, the AI should respect your territory and not move thru it without your permission. they should find another way around (like the sea) or beg for a Right of Passage. like i've said numerous times, a RoP is in their best interests 'cuz it allows them to utilize your transporation networks and speed them thru your territory. this will allow them to arrive at their destination as a group, instead of piecemeal, the latter of which will inevitably get them slaughtered.

 

[Minstrel]

I couldn't agree more. It is annoying watching them disrepect your territory. Hopefully this will be addressed in Civ 4.

 

[Arkaynnus]

although i hope it IS addressed in Civ4, i would hope the devs could fix the AI in Civ3. it would be as simple as if the AI decided to attack another Civ (not yours) but had to cross your territory to do it, it would first request a Right of Passage agreement before entering your territory. if you refused or made unreasonable demands, it would cross your territory anyway and risk a war.

i'm sure this kind of change would be relatively simple to implement and wouldn't be so complex as to force us to wait for Civ4. it's one of the improvements you probably wouldn't notice -- doubtful a critic would commend it in a review -- but would nevertheless be universally appreciated.

 

[Civslayer4sure]

I agree totaly. It is very annoying. In the thousands of games I've played, I've NEVER...Ever...had a civ ask me for a ROP. Never.
Good rep, bad rep, war or no war. It doesn't matter. It has just never happened.
Usually I'll get them to stay out after a few "get out or war!" but those pesky boats... that just doesn't work on them at all.
One of the biggest annoyances in the whole game is international wars started over a simple repeat iincursion of 1 or 2 galleys. That is just so unrealistic.

 

[eric_A]

Originally posted by Arkaynnus


we know the risk of war in asking them to leave, that's the problem. the problem is that you're only have 3 choices:

1) let them slowly trek thru your territory;
2) demand they leave and incur a war (this is all but guaranteed on the aggressive Ai levels;
3) bribe them to get a Right of Passage.

these are all poor options. like the thread's topic says, the AI should respect your territory and not move thru it without your permission. they should find another way around (like the sea) or beg for a Right of Passage. like i've said numerous times, a RoP is in their best interests 'cuz it allows them to utilize your transporation networks and speed them thru your territory. this will allow them to arrive at their destination as a group, instead of piecemeal, the latter of which will inevitably get them slaughtered.

Just man your borders with a continuous wall of units.

 

[Arkaynnus]

you obviously haven't been paying attention, eric, otherwise you'd know that blockading your borders doesn't work, particularly against Expansionist Civs, 'cuz they'll just produce naval transports and land their units on your coast and move through your territory that way. and if you've blockaded your borders and demanded they leave or declare war, they physically cannot leave your territory in one turn, and it will instigate a war. so blockading your borders doesn't work and is a poor option in the first place. after all, amassing military units along your border is hardly a friendly gesture and will make the AI even more paranoid as to your intentions, regardless if they're hostile or benign.

besides, it shouldn't have to come to that. the AI should be smart enough to respect your borders and/or request a RoP if it needs to move thru your territory, rather than simply barging into your territory and risking a war.

one problem is that with RoP, it gives both sides freedom to enter the other's territory, which the AI doesn't like 'cuz it means you could use it to facilitate an invasion. perhaps there could be a one-way Right of Passage, call it a "Transportation Agreement," which would entitle them to move thru your territory, but you can't move thru theirs. such an agreement would certainly require the Civ that is gifted the transportation agreement give the Civ offering it some sort of compensation, like a certain amount of Gold per turn, etc. this would placate the AI's paranoia of invasion and facilitate it's rapid movement thru your territory.

and it's a lot better than merely blockading your borders, 'cuz we all know that doesn't work against the AI.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Civslayer4sure
I agree totaly. It is very annoying. In the thousands of games I've played, I've NEVER...Ever...had a civ ask me for a ROP. Never.
Good rep, bad rep, war or no war. It doesn't matter. It has just never happened.
Usually I'll get them to stay out after a few "get out or war!" but those pesky boats... that just doesn't work on them at all.
One of the biggest annoyances in the whole game is international wars started over a simple repeat iincursion of 1 or 2 galleys. That is just so unrealistic.

First, the AI often asks for ROP. In my current game, (8 civs on emperor) I initialized the first ROPs, which was later cancelled, but after that I've been contacted and asked for ROP about 10 times in this game.

Note however that the AI values a ROP according to the size of the two civs. So if you have a bigger territory than the AI, it will ask for ROP and even be willing to pay for it, but if your territory is smaller, you must pay for the ROP.

Also note that if you have started one war with at least one unit inside enemy teritory, that is considered the same as breaking a ROP, and no civ will trust a ROP with you later in that game.

Secondly, why do you have to start a war to get out those boats? Just let them stay there. In my current game, Russia has kept some ironclads inside my territory for 30-40 turns, and I don't care.

 

[Qpdaj]

I'd like to see one-sided RoP's too. There's been multiple times when I would've liked to give RoP through my terriotry to one civ (because they were beating up on someone I didn't like, or whatever), but I had no interest in moving through their territory. But they wouldn't go for it, or at least not without *me* paying them, when the deal would've most benefited them!

It'd be so nice to be able to say, "gee, looks like you could use a RoP through my territory; whatcha gonna give me for it?"

 

[Turner]

A couple of galleys I wouldn't worry about either.

A settler and defender gets my immediate attention. I also don't like the AI using my territory to wage it's wars, so the AI generally has to find another way other than using my territory to get to war.

 

[NHJ BV]

Originally posted by Qpdaj
I'd like to see one-sided RoP's too. There's been multiple times when I would've liked to give RoP through my terriotry to one civ (because they were beating up on someone I didn't like, or whatever), but I had no interest in moving through their territory. But they wouldn't go for it, or at least not without *me* paying them, when the deal would've most benefited them!

It'd be so nice to be able to say, "gee, looks like you could use a RoP through my territory; whatcha gonna give me for it?"

Especially in those cases it would be great if you could sign a one-sided RoP.

 

[Arkaynnus]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
Secondly, why do you have to start a war to get out those boats? Just let them stay there. In my current game, Russia has kept some ironclads inside my territory for 30-40 turns, and I don't care.

a few ships aren't a concern, but i'm talking about the enemy sending dozens of units across your territory, or trying to sneak Settlers into your nation to build cities in the gaps in your cultural influence. the Settlers you can usually ask to move without a war -- although often you can't give the ultimatum right away, they'll just assure you they'll be out of your territory soon, which means they'll have reached their destination and screwed you over by that time.

but if you demand that the enemy withdraw its military forces, they'll usually declare war rather than be booted out of your territory.

and in my experience, it doesn't matter whether you're a bigger nation or smaller, or whether you've broken RoPs before or not. in my current game, i wuz the largest Civ by territory, but i wuz merely average in terms of military size -- and sandwiched between two warring super powers. the Carthaginians and I had never been at war with each other, were my closest neighbor, and we more or less got along with each other. but then they went ot war with the Americans to the south, and they sent a huge attack force right through my territory. i put up with them for about 10 turns, but the problem wuz that they were all like Riflemen units, which means they moved one square at a time and couldn't use my transporation networks, so they weren't even halfway across my territory by that time. since i planned to capitalize on the situation of having so much of their military occupied to the south, i wanted to establish a RoP with them to speed them through my territory. but they refused for anything less than several luxuries, a valuable Tech, or ~50 Gold per turn! i didn't want to give them that, so i cancelled the deal.

this made no sense because they would directly benefit from the RoP and they had no idea i intended to attack them soon afterward. but still they refused. ultimately i had to alter my plans at sign a military alliance with them against the Americans in order to get them to agree to the RoP and get them the hell out of my territory.

basically, i want the AI to respect players' borders more, 'cuz they're presently being totally hypocritical by never allowing you to violate their territory but not hesitating to violate yours and risk a war. this should be changed so its fair.

 

[Admiral_Tarton]

Do what i do: completely surround your territory with units
I do it every time!(mainly to bug the AI

 

[Qarus]

Walling off your borders isn't necesary. If you can create a wall inside your borders the AI knows its there and will stay out. If they still enter your border, then there sneak attacking you.

 

[eric_A]

Originally posted by Admiral_Tarton
Do what i do: completely surround your territory with units
I do it every time!(mainly to bug the AI

Once I get railroads built I just keep a large central
reserve of units and post guards every three or four
tiles around my borders (and seacoasts) when I spot
units coming I rail out my reserve and form a solid
wall. It's so much fun to annoy the AI.

 

[Arkaynnus]

you're not getting it. the point is that the AI is flawed, because they keep trying to sneak into your territory without permission. if the AI is gonna boot you out every time you set foot inside their borders, than they should expect the same treatment -- therefore, they shouldn't violate your territory to begin with.

when the AI makes a decision to send ANY units (be it military, Settlers, or Workers) they should first request a Right of Passage. if you reject it, then perhaps i'd understand for them trying to do it anyway. but to simply send units into your territory is just wrong and unfair, 'cuz you either have risk a war, let them go, or blockade them, and none of those are satisfactory IMO.

it would be cool if you could have a setting like "Closed Border" that would communicate to the AI that you wouldn't tolerate an incursion into your territory under any circumstances, and if they even tried to cross your border, it would automatically trigger a war. i think the AI would be more respectful of your territory in that situation.

however, if you're dealing with an aggressive militaristic AI, you might inadvertantly cause a war. and there might be a drawback to closing your borders, like a reduction in trade revenues, reflected by the increased security.

the idea that i should have to divert dozens of units to form a wall around my territory is absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable IMO. firstly, placing military units along the border will imply hostile intentions. second, if the AI wants into your territory, it'll use sea transports -- and blockading your coast would be virtually impossible, especially if you have a huge amount of territory. third, this problem is caused by the AI and therefore the AI should be fixed. the AI has a ridiculous double standard of forbidding you to enter its territory, while at the same time violating your territory with impunity.

this needs to be fixed.