AI Tech Progress

[tothePAIN]

@Stalker0 mentioned this in another thread a while ago: the AI surges ahead in terms of technology ahead of humans starting in the classical era through the medieval era. Humans than catch up in Renaissance and onward. This is generally my experience playing on Deity and other people said it seemed to be the same way on lower difficulties too.

Is this other people's experience as well?

I'm asking because as Vox Populi continues to develop, there are few areas of the game that are frustrating but this is one of them. The AI bonuses enabling the AI to be at 22 or 25 techs when I'm at 15 is frustrating. This happens even when I play civs with great early game science like Maya, etc.

 

[looorg]

Yes. It's my main issue with the game on deity and have been for some time, the massive bonus shower the AI get -- you can so clearly see if when the bonus overflow kicks in and a city just produces two-three units in a single turn or how they in a span of a few turns just crank out multiple technologies or as soon as a city goes down the wonders starts being built, not to mention when they switch era.

Sure you can keep up for a little while in the beginning but at soon as the AI starts to plop down their second and third city or so they'll just explode in power and before long they'll be 10-15 techs ahead of you and have an army that will far exceed your cap and all you can really do is just bite down on the giant s**t sandwich and wait for the some runaway AI to get far enough ahead so you'll get some spies and can slowly start to catch up again -- usually in late renaissance and industrial era, but it depends on the settings, geography, your neighbors etc. But by then it's usually to late cause some snowballer on the other side of the world has now built all the wonders and are just crushing all his neighbors left, right and center.

While being 10+ techs behind is bad, it's not the worst part of it. The worst of it is usually how being so far behind in quiet a short time just makes your stability/happiness crash, unless you prepare for it and it's not always an option, which makes catching up even harder.

There is no "play good" to be able to catch up or hold parity at this stage of the game. There has been various shenanigans you could engage in the try and keep the AI at bay, some might even call them cheating or creative bug usage but you can't compete on normal building with someone that just gets hundreds of free bonus units (prod, cult, gold, food etc) for nothing.

It's not really that civ-specific I found but it can just happen with any ai-civ, it's just seems more common with some of them since their bonuses help a little but it's quite small compared to the bonuses they get so it's almost irrelevant whatever civ-specific bonuses they get. At least that is my experience.

I guess the late few patches, sept and oct, made it a lot easier to get a religion again on deity. Somewhat related to the AI not getting the bonus on capital foundation, but the bonus shower just moved a bit further down the line I gather. So you'll have a fairly nice start most of the time -- you can without issue get pyramids/stonehenge if you like etc to but after that it just time to hunker down. Fighting into someone that is 10+ techs ahead of you just plain out sucks.It also seemed to be related to how the AI see you and when you are that far behind they'll just start chaining war declarations against you even if they are on the other side of the world and you'll never even see each other on the battlefield.

 

[Zanteogo]

Yes. It's my main issue with the game on deity and have been for some time, the massive bonus shower the AI get -- you can so clearly see if when the bonus overflow kicks in and a city just produces two-three units in a single turn or how they in a span of a few turns just crank out multiple technologies or as soon as a city goes down the wonders starts being built, not to mention when they switch era.

Sure you can keep up for a little while in the beginning but at soon as the AI starts to plop down their second and third city or so they'll just explode in power and before long they'll be 10-15 techs ahead of you and have an army that will far exceed your cap and all you can really do is just bite down on the giant s**t sandwich and wait for the some runaway AI to get far enough ahead so you'll get some spies and can slowly start to catch up again -- usually in late renaissance and industrial era, but it depends on the settings, geography, your neighbors etc. But by then it's usually to late cause some snowballer on the other side of the world has now built all the wonders and are just crushing all his neighbors left, right and center.

While being 10+ techs behind is bad, it's not the worst part of it. The worst of it is usually how being so far behind in quiet a short time just makes your stability/happiness crash, unless you prepare for it and it's not always an option, which makes catching up even harder.

There is no "play good" to be able to catch up or hold parity at this stage of the game. There has been various shenanigans you could engage in the try and keep the AI at bay, some might even call them cheating or creative bug usage but you can't compete on normal building with someone that just gets hundreds of free bonus units (prod, cult, gold, food etc) for nothing.

It's not really that civ-specific I found but it can just happen with any ai-civ, it's just seems more common with some of them since their bonuses help a little but it's quite small compared to the bonuses they get so it's almost irrelevant whatever civ-specific bonuses they get. At least that is my experience.

I guess the late few patches, sept and oct, made it a lot easier to get a religion again on deity. Somewhat related to the AI not getting the bonus on capital foundation, but the bonus shower just moved a bit further down the line I gather. So you'll have a fairly nice start most of the time -- you can without issue get pyramids/stonehenge if you like etc to but after that it just time to hunker down. Fighting into someone that is 10+ techs ahead of you just plain out sucks.It also seemed to be related to how the AI see you and when you are that far behind they'll just start chaining war declarations against you even if they are on the other side of the world and you'll never even see each other on the battlefield.

Don't play the higher difficulty levels if you want to somewhat avoid this. I usually don't go past King because it's just silly (to me). Not a knock against you or anyone who does.

Even worse now with the change to a flat science increase. Can't imagine how someone would deal with an AI that manages to take over a large land mass early on a bigger map. All the power to the people who do though.

 

[tothePAIN]

Don't play the higher difficulty levels if you want to somewhat avoid this. I usually don't go past King because it's just silly (to me). Not a knock against you or anyone who does.

Even worse now with the change to a flat science increase. Can't imagine how someone would deal with an AI that manages to take over a large land mass early on a bigger map. All the power to the people who do though.

Yeah, I think I may have to agree with you.

I might drop down to Emperor for a more fun/fair game at times, since deity feels a bit like vanilla for the early part of the game. There are certain wonders that are achievable before the AI bonuses really get going and then once the AI bonuses trigger upon cities founding, the AI tech level just takes off like a rocket. There's a point where the AI speeds ahead in techs. It really feels vanilla esque, but it does enable the game to continuously be a challenge, even as the player progresses.

I don't have any solutions to offer, I wanted to confirm that this experience is shared by others as well. Ideally, the AI should not be so noticably speeding ahead based off its founding bonuses, as it makes the game feel like Vanilla. The human player is trying to catch up in the mid game.

The AI is good enough to be a challenge at lower difficulties too.

 

[Stalker0]

Yes. It's my main issue with the game on deity and have been for some time, the massive bonus shower the AI get -- you can so clearly see if when the bonus overflow kicks in and a city just produces two-three units in a single turn or how they in a span of a few turns just crank out multiple technologies or as soon as a city goes down the wonders starts being built, not to mention when they switch era.

Sure you can keep up for a little while in the beginning but at soon as the AI starts to plop down their second and third city or so they'll just explode in power and before long they'll be 10-15 techs ahead of you and have an army that will far exceed your cap and all you can really do is just bite down on the giant s**t sandwich and wait for the some runaway AI to get far enough ahead so you'll get some spies and can slowly start to catch up again -- usually in late renaissance and industrial era, but it depends on the settings, geography, your neighbors etc. But by then it's usually to late cause some snowballer on the other side of the world has now built all the wonders and are just crushing all his neighbors left, right and center.

While being 10+ techs behind is bad, it's not the worst part of it. The worst of it is usually how being so far behind in quiet a short time just makes your stability/happiness crash, unless you prepare for it and it's not always an option, which makes catching up even harder.

There is no "play good" to be able to catch up or hold parity at this stage of the game. There has been various shenanigans you could engage in the try and keep the AI at bay, some might even call them cheating or creative bug usage but you can't compete on normal building with someone that just gets hundreds of free bonus units (prod, cult, gold, food etc) for nothing.

It's not really that civ-specific I found but it can just happen with any ai-civ, it's just seems more common with some of them since their bonuses help a little but it's quite small compared to the bonuses they get so it's almost irrelevant whatever civ-specific bonuses they get. At least that is my experience.

I guess the late few patches, sept and oct, made it a lot easier to get a religion again on deity. Somewhat related to the AI not getting the bonus on capital foundation, but the bonus shower just moved a bit further down the line I gather. So you'll have a fairly nice start most of the time -- you can without issue get pyramids/stonehenge if you like etc to but after that it just time to hunker down. Fighting into someone that is 10+ techs ahead of you just plain out sucks.It also seemed to be related to how the AI see you and when you are that far behind they'll just start chaining war declarations against you even if they are on the other side of the world and you'll never even see each other on the battlefield.

Something we have to remember ... even with all of this ... humans are still winning games on deity. As good as the AI has gotten....its not skynet, and in order to beat a human it requires "cheats". The VP team has done an excellent job of reducing those bonuses over time....but you cannot take them away and expect the same competitive experience.

 

[looorg]

Something we have to remember ... even with all of this ... humans are still winning games on deity. As good as the AI has gotten....its not skynet, and in order to beat a human it requires "cheats". The VP team has done an excellent job of reducing those bonuses over time....but you cannot take them away and expect the same competitive experience.

I'm not saying that. Humans, including myself, still do win games on deity. So it's not insurmountable or anything, it's just that not all games turn out to be winnable -- they might be but it's usually to annoying and the specifics for a win tend to rapidly shrink into a few possible scenarios as the game progresses. Not to say that it isn't annoying, I gather some people would prefer to call it a challenge, and some times it's less then fun -- it's never fun when you see blatant cheating from the AI in any game. That said the AI still do painfully stupid things when you watch it and I guess that is the reason you can still remain on the map even vs the bonus fueled AI. It's just that with the bonuses most of those stupid things -- like un-escorted settlers/workers etc almost doesn't matter. The AI can still keep up thanks to the bonuses so their actual choices are somehow trivialized compared to it. But there might not be a better solution to offer, still it doesn't make it less annoying to see it.

Don't play the higher difficulty levels if you want to somewhat avoid this. I usually don't go past King because it's just silly (to me). Not a knock against you or anyone who does.

Even worse now with the change to a flat science increase. Can't imagine how someone would deal with an AI that manages to take over a large land mass early on a bigger map. All the power to the people who do though.

The problem with that is that the lower difficulties are "to easy" and become boring, or less fun, for that reason. You steamroll the AI instead of the opposite. I know it's hard to find that middle ground where it's not to easy and not insanely hard but that level is still for the most part at Deity from my testing.

 

[tothePAIN]

Something we have to remember ... even with all of this ... humans are still winning games on deity. As good as the AI has gotten....its not skynet, and in order to beat a human it requires "cheats". The VP team has done an excellent job of reducing those bonuses over time....but you cannot take them away and expect the same competitive experience.

Sure. I can still win games on deity. Right now, it requires specific strategies that account for playing from behind.

Ideally, in the long run, the bonuses will continue to decrease so that the AI is not artificially pushed ahead. The harshest critique that I can offer is that its vanillaesque.

The AI is very good, even when at tech parity.

 

[Zanteogo]

The problem with that is that the lower difficulties are "to easy" and become boring, or less fun, for that reason. You steamroll the AI instead of the opposite. I know it's hard to find that middle ground where it's not to easy and not insanely hard but that level is still for the most part at Deity from my testing.

To each there own of course.

I think my personal pet peeve when it comes to the top end difficulty levels is the AI and war. The AI can just produce so many units so fast that's it's super clear they are playing by a totally different ruleset than you. Even on King you see this where killing 2 enemy units for every 1 you lose probably will mean a losing war. This number becomes even more unbalanced the higher you go.

Heck I even end up losing probably about 30% of games I play on prince.

 

[JLazeZ]

If any of you'd like you can customize your difficulty level modifiers.
Here's how, https://civ-5-cbp.fandom.com/wiki/Customizing_Difficulty_Levels
And you can use this to compare bonuses between difficulties, https://civ-5-cbp.fandom.com/wiki/AI_and_Difficulty

Maybe through experimenting with various AI/Player bonuses we'll be able to at least lessen the noticeability of the AI's handicaps in the higher levels.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I am noticing the same thing @tothePAIN is mentioning. The first 50-80 turns are pretty normal, and then the first AIs are running away in techs till Renaissance, when Iam now able to finally catch up.

Iam playing now for long time on emperor (cause it's for me the last enjoyable difficulty before it gets more work than fun) and I think it's not a difficulty problem in general, but more one of weightening.

I have played 2 matches teamed up with 2 AIs and always when an AI constructed a world wonder, it was enough science to finish at least one tech. (even we need 3 times the amount in science cause we were 3 in the team)

 

[azum4roll]

AI doesn't even get any science for completing a world wonder.

I think the science from era should be removed though, as well as the entire bonus from conquering a liberated CS again.

 

[tothePAIN]

I am noticing the same thing @tothePAIN is mentioning. The first 50-80 turns are pretty normal, and then the first AIs are running away in techs till Renaissance, when Iam now able to finally catch up.

Iam playing now for long time on emperor (cause it's for me the last enjoyable difficulty before it gets more work than fun) and I think it's not a difficulty problem in general, but more one of weightening.

I have played 2 matches teamed up with 2 AIs and always when an AI constructed a world wonder, it was enough science to finish at least one tech. (even we need 3 times the amount in science cause we were 3 in the team)

I've played some emperor and immortal games and notice it on emperor and immortal too but less. I can play well enough to take a lead on emperor and immortal in the classical and medieval eras.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

AI doesn't even get any science for completing a world wonder.

I think the science from era should be removed though, as well as the entire bonus from conquering a liberated CS again.

Then I wonder how it was possible, that we were able to finish 3 techs in 4 turns while I was contributing only my normal science per turn.

 

[azum4roll]

Then I wonder how it was possible, that we were able to finish 3 techs in 4 turns while I was contributing only my normal science per turn.

If you have logs enabled, go check them.

 

[cptHaddock]

@Stalker0 mentioned this in another thread a while ago: the AI surges ahead in terms of technology ahead of humans starting in the classical era through the medieval era. Humans than catch up in Renaissance and onward. This is generally my experience playing on Deity and other people said it seemed to be the same way on lower difficulties too.

Is this other people's experience as well?

I'm asking because as Vox Populi continues to develop, there are few areas of the game that are frustrating but this is one of them. The AI bonuses enabling the AI to be at 22 or 25 techs when I'm at 15 is frustrating. This happens even when I play civs with great early game science like Maya, etc.

yeah do find it frustrating as well, it feels like the AI gets a huge boost early-mid game and then kinda stagnates, I think part of it is that it's working tooo many specialists so that their core cities stagnates as more and more specialists are unlocked and those specialist yields are very strong when they kick in, but at the cost of future growth, and to make matters worse it doesn't improve tiles nearly as well as a human.

I've thought about if changing era tech cost somehow could make early-mid game more interesting, or disabling defensive pacts to make it more dynamic from chivalry and onwards, I really miss vanilla Monty AI tearing through the map with big core cities and the chain denouncements against him.

As a side note if I can get Goddess of Renewal pantheon and focus markets early on It makes it possible to kinda keep up and get some early-mid game wonders but that makes the late game less challenging (Immortal or sometimes Diety)