Air combat needs a remake

[Sesquiterpene]

(Sorry if I repeat a discussion; couldn't an older one)

In previous versions air units could operate from bases other than one's cities and bomb units / cities - which allowed later game imperial "power projection" in cases where you wanted to make a point without a full-scale invasion and occupation.

In CiV there are few issues that prevent you from doing that:

a. air units operate only from your cities / carriers.

b. can't bomb improvements or cities (other than for the sake of taking them)

c. can't bomb unless you see the target (need a spy / land forces around).

This is a pity because it means that airpower can only support defense or offense which includes "boots on the ground". This is unrealistic and it takes away a major aspect of modern warfare, which could easily be included in the game.

The solutions are fairly simple:
a. allow using ally CS or even ally civ's cities as bases.

b. allow bombing improvements to cut oil / aluminum / uranium / luxes supplies, and perhaps even city buildings or citizens.

c. bring back the "recon" air mission to get, at least a partial, view of your targets.

 

[joshua43214]

errrr.

Strategic bombing (just like strategic shelling) is a fail in real life. Until we started putting "boots on the ground" to target airstrikes and artillery fire, folks pretty much always missed that bridge/factory/supply dump/rail road/etc.

It was a fantasy cooked up by some generals in WW II that failed miserably all the way through Viet Nam when we started using LRP's to target stuff.

All that said, imagine you are at war with the AI. Suddenly you have no oil, no iron, no aluminum, no coal because the AI went for your improvements. They have this huge massive carpet of death and you are fighting with strategic resource penalty...

Great War bombers are already unbalanced, do we need to make it even worse?

 

[MerchantCo]

What I'd like to see is air units which actually operated like helicopters - not just some stupid animation. Air units could also hover above ground units, but they would have to return back to a city after a few turns or they'd crash.

 

[FrostK]

a. I think range is ok.
b. There is also unclear weapon. You can use it do destroy improvements or population.
c. you can scout with fighters

 

[Vohbo]

- Air units provide sight range of 6, at least the fighters and later on the stealths.
- The ability to destroy improvements would be vastly overpowered because a few stealths could take out all of your opponent's luxuries and strategic resources without the ability to protect them properly.
- It stands to reason that you need an airport or military base to launch aircraft. Since all of civ is centered on cities (in real life taking a city has no implications for control of the countryside around it), it stands to reason you can only position them there.

It's pretty clear that you just want one of the most powerful units in the game to just become even more powerful, I don't think there is any reason for it and it would make the game far worse.

 

[George Abitbol]

I agree, you should be able to garrison air units in Allied CS, they could act as advanced bases.

 

[MarshalN]

How about these?

1-allow multiple (2?) intercepts by fighters. The 1 to 1 ratio is a bit weird and heavily favor bombers

2-have a max number of bombers in a city

3-accumulate xp for antiaircraft actions

 

[Sesquiterpene]

All problems pointed here, while true, are balance issues which naturally occur when you introduce a new feature to the current game. They can, however, be worked out.

The main issue is that at the moment air units are simply extended artillery, and nothing more. Air combat has changed the way nations fight, especially in restricted conflicts and air units in the game should reflect that by adding another type of war, not just adding new names and animations to the old ones.

 

[joshua43214]

How about these?

1-allow multiple (2?) intercepts by fighters. The 1 to 1 ratio is a bit weird and heavily favor bombers

2-have a max number of bombers in a city

3-accumulate xp for antiaircraft actions

#1 and #3 are already in the game. Fighters doing intercept take damage and promote like any other unit and will eventually get air repair/logistics. I don't build them until I have military science and the epic to make sure they get promoted faster.

#2 is something that hopefully will get implemented in the fall patch. The AI currently goes crazy with GWB's. I commonly see stacks of over 30 of them in enemy cities.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I really liked the Civ3 idea of an "airfield", which was a worker terrain improvement. You could base your aircraft there, whether it was near a city or not. Somewhat similar to the Allies airbases on little Pacific islands during WW II. You had to guard it, for it would be destroyed if an enemy land unit entered it.

In Civ5, with the cities spaced further apart, it's possible to run into range issues on a large Pangea map. Of course, once you've conquered an enemy city in Civ5, you can base your aircraft there immediately. In Civ3, one needed to build an airport which usually meant rush-building with gold.

 

[BladeRuz]

Hello, everyone. Joshua, I am almost certain that air interception do not give you any XP at this point, as I had my Jets intercepting every turn and no XP gained. So only way to level up your "Jets" is to attack with them.
I think that they should introduce the concept of military airfield. So u should have to build one in a city before it can produce air units or station them. Also, there can be different sizes of military airfields to station different max amounts of planes, but they should have high upkeep. U also shoulfd be able to build them on friendly territory with workers, but again it should take some time to build and upkeep should be very high for it.
The air units seem to be overpowered not because u can station a lot of them in one city or because they are so powerful once leveled up, but because they are so cheap. I believe the upkeep for air units should be 2-3 times higher than other units, as in real life bombing is a very expensive affair. Also the construction should take more time or gold. With proper economy and social policies, even on Deity I manage to buy a bomber every other turn.

 

[TiVO]

- The ability to destroy improvements would be vastly overpowered because a few stealths could take out all of your opponent's luxuries and strategic resources without the ability to protect them properly.

Not that I'm necessarily supporting the idea, but this could be balanced by extending the intercept range of fighters and anti-aircraft guns. If anything is changed, an extended intercept range, even if as a promotion, is what I'd like to see the most.

 

[joshua43214]

Hello, everyone. Joshua, I am almost certain that air interception do not give you any XP at this point, as I had my Jets intercepting every turn and no XP gained.

I had a game a few weeks ago where I was at perma-war with the Ottomans for ~200 turns, and only had a tiny military the entire time. I clearly remember my interceptor getting upgraded to air repair and whatever the interceptor version of logistics is in that game. It might be they only get experience if the enemy performs and air sweep to clear the way for their bombers first, but interceptors do gain experience.

 

[z284pwr]

#2 is something that hopefully will get implemented in the fall patch. The AI currently goes crazy with GWB's. I commonly see stacks of over 30 of them in enemy cities.

Agreed. The AI has completely gone off the deep end with GWB. The ratio of fighters and Mobile SAMs needed to fend of 30 is ridiculous. If they were to last till bombers and stealth they would be impossible to fight. Luckily my games don't last that long

 

[MarshalN]

I had a game a few weeks ago where I was at perma-war with the Ottomans for ~200 turns, and only had a tiny military the entire time. I clearly remember my interceptor getting upgraded to air repair and whatever the interceptor version of logistics is in that game. It might be they only get experience if the enemy performs and air sweep to clear the way for their bombers first, but interceptors do gain experience.

You must be misremembering because I just played a game where my fighter was intercepting every turn and it never gained any XP

 

[joshua43214]

You must be misremembering because I just played a game where my fighter was intercepting every turn and it never gained any XP

Was it dog-fighting though?
My fighter was at about 40% health when it got air repair (starting at dog-fighting II), and at about 90% when it got "logistics." I am betting the fighter has to take damage to gain experience, which will only happen if the enemy performs an air sweep. I am pretty sure your fighter will take no damage just intercepting a bomber.

 

[Ninakoru]

Yeah the problems I see are being said here, to me problem with air units are:

- Computer does not know how to properly use them, They should use fighters for interception at least if they know there are bombers in range.

- Interception does not give XP, is ridiculous.

- I think interception is bugged, planes have low interception rate, but not only that, I think the % is aplied ONCE and if fail no interception will bid done by any plane on range. Anyways planes should have a shighly better chance at interception.

- Stealth bombers are near invulnerable once you get repair, they should get some damage from jet fighters.

- Max number of city-based units, I would say maybe 4 bombers/fighters/missiles.

 

[z284pwr]

Yeah the problems I see are being said here, to me problem with air units are:

- Computer does not know how to properly use them, They should use fighters for interception at least if they know there are bombers in range.

- Interception does not give XP, is ridiculous.

- I think interception is bugged, planes have low interception rate, but not only that, I think the % is aplied ONCE and if fail no interception will bid done by any plane on range. Anyways planes should have a shighly better chance at interception.

- Stealth bombers are near invulnerable once you get repair, they should get some damage from jet fighters.

- Max number of city-based units, I would say maybe 4 bombers/fighters/missiles.

I see AI use fighters for bombing way too often as where I do agree they should intercept far more often. or at least until they have Mobile SAMs. These are pretty much my only way to defend against stealth. Even then mass piled stealth is pretty much impossible to defend against yes. Limiting units would help but with stealth's range it won't be as effective at limiting the mass ai production

 

[MarshalN]

Was it dog-fighting though?
My fighter was at about 40% health when it got air repair (starting at dog-fighting II), and at about 90% when it got "logistics." I am betting the fighter has to take damage to gain experience, which will only happen if the enemy performs an air sweep. I am pretty sure your fighter will take no damage just intercepting a bomber.

No not dog fighting but it makes no sense intercepting bombers give no XP

 

[Walter R]

I think it does in this regard: There is no prediction of damage to the attacking unit (or to be strictly correct, the damage is always estimated as zero). All other combat allows a realistic estimation of the outcome before committing the unit to the attack, which includes the damage to the attacking unit. All other ranged attacks (i.e. land and naval) would expect zero damage to the attacker - I think they just forgot to update the display for air units.

I appreciate that interception damage by fighters, SAMs etc. is a totally different issue.