Alexander the Great Scenario: Units Thread

[Exsanguination]

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT:
Discussions on this scenario are NOT to continue here at CFC. We have found a new home at CDG. Feel free to browse the existing threads, as they will remain here and continue to be a reference for the scenario. To contribute to the scenario, or to stay updated on whats going on, visit CDG:

ATG Scenario Index
ATG Scenario: Main Discussions
ATG Scenario: UNITS
ATG Scenario: CIVILIZATIONS
ATG Scenario: Historical Discussion
Civ3 Index at CDG

Please, visit us at our NEW home!

--Ex (10/24/02)


This thread is solely for the purpose of posting and discussing units for the upcoming Alexander the Great Scenario.


Tenative Unit List:

Macedon
Phalangite -> Phalangite (Kryten)
Hypaspist + Agema -> Hypaspist (Kryten)
Agrianian
Peltast -> Peltast (Kryten)
Skirmisher -> Levy Spearmen (Kryten)
\Javelineer
\Slinger
\Companion Cavalry + Basilike
\Thessalian Cavalry -> Ex
Thracian Heavy Cavalry -> Civ3 Default Horseman
Thracian Prodromoi -> Ex
\Paeonian Cavalry -> Ex
\Mercenary Hoplite -> Civanator

Persia
Apple-Bearer -> Ex
Mardian Archer -> Civ3 Longbowman
Infantry** -> Civ3 Spearman
\Footman
Royal Kinsman -> Ex
Bactrian Cavalry -> Ex
Scythian Horse Archer -> Horse Archer (Kryten)
Hyrcanian Cavalry-> Ex
Parthian Horseman -> Ex
Scythed Chariot -> Kryten
\Mercenary Hoplite -> Civanator

India
\Bamboo Archer
Infantry** -> Civ3 Spearman
War Elephant -> Civ3 War Elephant

Egypt
War Chariot* -> Civ3 War Chariot

Athens
Hoplite*** -> Civ3 Hoplite
\The Theban Band****
\Diere -> Kryten/Smoking Mirror?
\Triere-> Kryten/Smoking Mirror?
\Trade Ship* -> Kryten?

Lacadaemonia
Hoplite*** -> Civ3 Hoplite
Spartiate
\Diere -> Kryten
--(something else)--

Ionia
Hoplite*** -> Civ3 Hoplite
Pisidian Light Infantry
\Diere -> Kryten/Smoking Mirror?
\Triere -> Kryten/Smoking Mirror?
\Trade Ship* -> Kryten?
--(some other ship)--

Phoenicia
\Diere -> Kryten/Smoking Mirror?
\Pentere -> Kryten/Smoking Mirror?
\Trade Ship -> Kryten?
--(some other ship)--

Arabia
Horse Archer* -> Horse Archer (Kryten)

Scythia
Mounted Archer* -> Horse Archer (Kryten)
Hillman -> Kryten

ALL CIVS (animations all Civ3 default unless otherwise noted)
Scout
Infantry-> Civ3 Spearman
Swordsman
Archer
Horseman
Chariot


*I want a new, civ-specific name for these (except for Trade Ship, which I want a better generic name for)
**I need a civ-specific name for these two infantry because they will be slightly stronger than the normal infantry.
***Was there a different name in Sparta/Athens for hoplites? Should we give both civs the same unit? As you can see, Sparta will get another unit, but I don't know of any other special units they had.
****All I want here is the standard hoplite animation with the 'Theban' logo/insignia on the shield.

\ Unit still needs an animation.

If you have a unit you'd like to offer or are willing to help create some units, drop us a line.

Several of these units will be 2D 'picture' units. This is to speed up production time. If you have anything to post about the scenario itself, do so in the scenario thread (or on the website). This thread is for unit previews and discussions ONLY.

--Ex

 

[BeBro]

Just a question - will there be no siege engines?

Edit: Bireme and Trireme are Roman names - Greek would be Diere and Triere - just a small suggestion

Edit2: Quinquereme is Pentere in Greek

Overall it looks great

 

[Exsanguination]

Originally posted by BeBro
Just a question - will there be no siege engines?

Edit: Bireme and Trireme are Roman names - Greek would be Diere and Triere - just a small suggestion

Overall it looks great

Thanks. Yes, there will be siege engines (forgot about those). They will probably just be a tweaked civ3 catapult.

 

[Kryten]

Immortals: this was the famous guards unit of the early Persan Empire, and consisted of 9 units each 1,000 men strong with a 'silver pomegranate' counterbalance on their spearbutts, and a Royal Bodyguard unit also of 1,000 men with a 'golden apple' as a counterbalance. They also carried oblong flat shields and bows.
However, the Immortals were destroyed in 479 BC at the battle of Plataea by the Athenians and Spartans.

Nonetheless, when Alexander invaded the Persian Empire in 334 BC, Darius the third had as a bodyguard two elite 1,000 man units; the Royal Squadron were the mounted guards, and the 'Apple-Bearers' were the foot guards (the 9,000 'Bearers of the Silver Pomegranates' were never reformed after their defeat in 479 BC).

I think that the Civ Immortal would be suitable as the 'Apple-Bearers', but to be historically accurate it should have a spear instead of a scimitar and carry a round 'Hoplon' type shield.

 

[Kryten]

The mounted guardsmen of the Royal Squadron are also known as the "Royal Kinsmen". They were equipped much like the rest of the Persian heavy cavalry, with spears and no shields.
(Exsanguination, notice how much their feet dangle below the horses belly?).

A mounted Civ3 Immortal with a spear would look good here.

 

[Kryten]

And here is a picture of Alexander fighting the Indians, and shows some of their shield types and patterns.

 

[Exsanguination]

Is that a Men-At-Arms screenshot?

Alright, so how about this:

Apple-Bearer -> Lab Monkey's Eastern Pikeman
Royal Squadron-> leave it to me (or Lab Monkey's Arab Knight)

The Apple-Bearer could the equivalent of the immortal (in strength), and the Squadron could be a faster, slightly more offensive unit. If you wanna put him together, you can. We could use Lab Monkey's Arab Knight, if it is suitable.

EDIT: Whoa, you posted those pics while I was typing. Thanks . Alright Kryten - you got me on the feet . I haven't had a chance to edit the Thracian Cavalry yet, but when I do I will definetely make him more accurate.

Also, i noticed you said you were gonna start making 2D static units (like I) to speed up production of the scenario. That's great, but I personally would like to see the Companions animated, if at all possible. It's just one of those units, ya know? I think I can handle the 2D units for now, they are quite easy once you get the hang of it. If you don't want to animate the Companion (and trust me, I'd know why!), that doesn't matter. Just a personal request.

 

[Kryten]

Exsanguination, do you remember all those unit previews that I posted in the "Alex the Great scenario" thread? Have a look at them. I think there are several that could be turned into '2D' units (i.e. non-animated Civ2 type units).
Let me know and I'll post them here ready for use, along with a units_32 file.

I just saw your above post. Ok, I'll keep animating the Companion and leave you with the easy job.

BTW, don't forget that link to that Thracian site you posted for me.
The pictures in there might help you with the Thracian cavalry.

 

[The Strategos]

Ok, solution to the Spartan problem of the other thread...call the standard Spartan hoplite the perioikoi and make them backbone of the army with the Spartiates as the elite hoplite unit.

Ionian calvary: I think they should have calvary that's better then the base calvary unit after all at Grancius R. they had some 2,000 Bactrian and roughly 10-20,000 other good calvary such as Median/Hyrcanian/Paphlagonian

A siege weapon solution??? Give every civ reg catapult option to build (but none at start) Give Macedonia the catapult upgrade "ballista" (is that one l or two?) The ballista was torsion powered and was an upgrade over the normal catapult that at this time only Greeks/Macedonia had

 

[Kryten]

Once again I find myself in total agreement with Strategos.

After re-reading my copy of “Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars” by Duncan Head, I’d like to offer the following suggestions about the visual appearance of some of the units on Exsanguination’s list:-

Persian Guards:
“Royal Kinsman”: a mounted Civ3 Immortal with a spear, yellow cloak, and no shield.
“Royal Spearbearer”: a Civ3 Immortal with a spear and a white ‘hoplon’ shield with no emblem.
Note: although the picture I posted earlier in this thread shows the red patterned back of a “Spearbearer’s” shield, the Issos mosaic has two fallen Persians nearby the Great King, one displaying the face of a plain white ‘hoplon’ shield and carrying a spear, the other dressed the same but armed with a bow. These are presumably the “Royal Spearbearer’s”, and indicates that they were either armed with a spear and bow, or they were a mixed unit of spearmen and bowmen like the Immortals of the early Achaemenid Persian Empire of Xerxes (sorry, but I don’t have a picture of the Issos mosaic I’m afraid).
As the pictures that I did post showed the guardsmen wearing purple, could this be the Civ3 colour of the Persians in the scenario?
I’ve also taken the liberty of asking Lab Monkey if we can adapt the “Arabian Horseman” into a “Royal Kinsman” by removing the scimitar and buckler, and replacing them with a spear and cloak.

Lacedaemonians:
“Perioikoi Hoplite”: a Civ3 Hoplite with a bronze ‘hoplon’ shield displaying the Greek letter ‘lambda’ (an inverted ‘V’).
“Spartan Hoplite”: same as above, but with a white linen cuirass (as you know, I have this thing about giving elite units a white cuirass; see the picture of the Macedonians fighting the Indians that I posted earlier).
“Lacedaemonian Horseman”: the standard Civ3 Horseman should suffice, as he looks light and of poor fighting quality.
Note: all the Lacedaemonians, along with the Macedonians, wore red tunics and had red emblems on their shields (dark red Civ3 colours for the Lacaedomonians and bright red for the Macedonians perhaps?).

Greek and Macedonian Cavalry:
“Greek & Ionian Horsemen”: a mounted Civ3 Hoplite with a spear and no shield.
“Companion Cavalry”: a mounted Civ3 Hoplite with a lance and no shield, but with a ‘Thracian’ type helmet.
“Basilike Bodyguard”: same as the Companion, but with a white linen cuirass.
Note: this does leave the problem of what the “Thessalian Horsemen” should look like.
May I suggest that they be the same as the “Greek Horseman”, but mounted on white horses to distinguish them from the rest of Alexander’s Greek allies?

(I would have liked to have posted all these suggestions as single frame previews instead of verbal discriptions, but a single frame preview is the same thing as the 2D images that Exsanguination is already creating. So I've decided to follow his suggestion and to concentrate on animating instead.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exsanguination, I have included below a bundle consisting of my shieldless running man ‘base’ figure, as well as all my current ‘hoplon’ shields in 3D perspective.
The running man has both arms visible in ten slightly different positions (take a look at the FLC file using FLICster), and will help when creating shieldless cavalry, although you may have to alter/remove his legs in order to fit him on a horse. You will also need to change his standard ‘Thracian’ type helmet, depending on how you use him.
He has helped me in creating the last four or five units, so perhaps he can help you too.
(Note: everything in this bundle uses the Hoplite palette, so should be ok with most horses)

 

[Kryten]

Here's another picture which might be useful....

 

[Kryten]

....and I promise, no more pictures after this one.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Hey I love those picts, so just keep posting them!
Btw awesome scenario idea. I see, that a lot real good scenarios will be out! I saw a Fall of Rome scenario on the Apolyton boards with the Huns! YAY!
Now this Alexandar the Great scenario! Oh yea medieval/ancient scens will own!

 

[Kryten]

You are going to get me into trouble Gorgoroth!
Ok then, just a few more.....

(BTW everybody, I was wrong about the "Royal Spearbearer's" shield being white. As you can see from the previous picture, it is in fact silver polished to a mirror brightness with a bronze rim.
Also, the figure in the forground is one of the "Kardakes" that fought at Issos, while both the "Royal Spearbearer's" behind him are wearing Greek type curiass.
So perhaps the "Royal Spearbearer's" would be better represented by a Civ3 Hoplite with Persian headdress, a silver shield, and trousers)

Below is a picture of Alexander's light infantry. In the foreground is a Peltast carrying an old-fashioned 'pelta' type shield, behind him is an "Agrianian Javelinman", and in the background is an archer and staff-slinger.

 

[Kryten]

Here is a picture of the "Thracian Peltasts" that fought against and for Alexander.
(Note that the figure in the forground is using the deadly two-handed 'rhomphaia', which didn't come into fashion untill well after Alexander's time)

 

[Gorgoroth]

MORE! MORE!
Seriously these pictures are superb. Thx for sharing them with us.

 

[Kryten]

Last of all, a composite picture.

At the top are Greek Hoplites, with a slinger and an early Thracian Peltast in the background.
(Note 2nd figure in the front row with the bronze shield with the 'club of hercules' on it. This was the national symbol of Thebes. The elite "Theban Sacred Band" would be the same but with a white instead of bronze shield, and....you guessed it....a white linen cuirass.
As Strategos pointed out in the other thread, the 300 man "Sacred Band" was wiped out by Philip II at the battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC.
However, the Thebans certainly didn't give up having an army after this defeat, so may have reformed them. Perhaps give them one "Sacred Band" unit at the start of the scenario and not let them build any more?)

The bottom picture shows Alexander crossing the river Granicus accompanied by various Companions, Thessalians and Greeks.
(Please note that the shields shown by the artist in this picture are wrong. No cavalry wore shields during Alexander's time. The first recorded use of shielded cavalry was in 317 BC when 2,300 'Tarantine' mercenary light horsemen fought for Antigonos during the Wars of the Successors following Alexander's death.)

 

[Kryten]

Oh, and this picture shows the Persian "Scythe Chariot" and various Persian heavy cavalry.
(Note the heavy "Bactrian Horseman" in the background whose horse has the same scale armour chest protection as that of the chariot horses)

Remember, it was never my intention to just fill up this thread with lots of pretty pictures, but rather use them as a guide and aid to historical accuracy. So no more for the moment because we now have to get on with the job of making our units look like these illustrations.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Thx again Kryten!

 

[The Strategos]

As Strategos pointed out in the other thread, the 300 man "Sacred Band" was wiped out by Philip II at the battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC.
However, the Thebans certainly didn't give up having an army after this defeat, so may have reformed them. Perhaps give them one "Sacred Band" unit at the start of the scenario and not let them build any more?)

A quote from some encyclopedia I have "A revolt at Thebes caused Alexander the Great to attack and destroy (336 B.C.) the city. Cassander rebuilt Thebes c.315 B.C., but it never regained its former greatness"
When exactly are you starting the scenario? Has Thebes been destroyed already or does it exist? It's my impression that your making it still exist and lumping it with Athens...is this the right impression? If so I would suggest no Sacred Band at the begining and avalible only after a specific advance to show the time it would take to requip/retrain an unit that had only a short while ago been anihilated. However I'm pretty ambevialent about it so if you wish to try and argue me out of that view I wouldn't resist to hard