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Alternative campaign-the Mongols

Apologies if you are not new to the editor kaskavel, but the main thing that confused me about the editor when I started is that you need to:

i) create a new .biq file, making sure it has a blank map (Map menu, clear map if required)
ii) make your changes and save it
iii) load up Civ3 and select 'Civ Content', load up your modified .biq file and play your game from that.
 
My first attempt failed! I managed to take out the Ottomans, 6 French cities in eastern and western Russia and had got the Vikings down to 1x turn of existence left when they made a trade embargo (custom setting) with the Rifleman and Cavalry possessing Germans (I had just got Cavalry but none of my cities were defended by Cavalry). This mere trade embargo seemed enough to tip the Germans into immediate mid-turn hostility so I didn't even get a turn to consider scrambling to get an MPP with anyone that was a buffer between me and Germany, Bismarck struck and it was 'Goodnight Vienna'. There is no way I have the playing skills to defeat his units whilst defending my cities with Keshiks (defence 2). He took 4 cities in the first two turns.

After the war declaration I couldn't raise an MPP with anyone bordering Germany as he was so advanced that even offering 5 or 6 techs was nowhere near persuasive enough for another Civ to embrace suicide.

Five factors contributed to my loss, with the first one being by far the largest issue.

1) I am a lover, not a fighter. What is this war business? I preferred to feed my horses sugar cubes rather than endanger them.
2) Russia to my north popped a settlement straight away (as did I in fairness) and declared war. So I had a strong, hostile neighbour right to my north from the outset which hindered my teching and warfare plans against weaker neighbours.
3) Germany (with my slightly reduced aggression for Bismarck to make him less suicidal), only had one brief skirmish but otherwise focussed on teching and building.
4) Losing one of my armies in a bizarre culture flip to Sumeria killed my Keshik momentum and made me decide to try to race toward cavalry. By the time I got cavalry various neighbours to the south had locked themselves up in a variety of MPPs and got Gunpowder.
5) All the wars were in the middle east, Africa, southeast Asia and Americas (i.e. nowhere near my borders). So except for the Ottomans, all wars I was considering were against full strength doom-stacked AI Civs who were often in MPPs. With no defensive units I could not risk getting involved in a war of attrition, that might spread to another neighbour attacking me on another front. But that's the way the cookie crumbles and part of what makes the game so enjoyable. You don't know which AI Civs are going to be lifelong friends with eachother or stay at war for a full era.

A really, really interesting change of pace for me though. I will definitely revisit this one another time and ramp up my own aggression considerably and see what happens. Thanks again!
 
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I will give it a try on Emperor, asking for some trouble myself. Arid, cool, 3 billion, no trading ancient tech, random barbs, big continents
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Got a nice start...I do not reload the starting positions and I was lucky this time I think.
 
I extracted a settler, a tech, some gold and some knowledge of the continent from the expansionist trait, Not very impressive overall. Now I am just a guy with cheap barracks and faster mil experience.
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I suffered two stupid wars with the iroquois and the persians on my west (and I also have that maniac Montezuma on my east) that held me back when there was much land to be settled and as a result, I am very squeezed and surrounded. On the other hand, I have good land (what kind of arid world is this by the way?), no need for aqueducts and at least 2 luxuries. I need to grab those gems before the English do. With 3 luxuries, I think I can make it.
 
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The Aztecs beat me to the gems for 1 round. I founded a city next to the gems to go for the culture war, but Montezuma as expected had another kind of war in mind. I lost the city (where do all those aztec troops always come from?) and was about to lose Darhan as well, when my retreating armies produced a leader and my new founded army balanced the scales. I killed 30 troops but he kept coming. He even had convoys of settlers trying to pass through the battlefiend. Peace was eventualy agreed. At least I got an army and 6 foreign workers for my trouble. Now, I produce lots of horsemen, I am about to hit libraries and I am in desperate need of space.
 
I am very squeezed and surrounded.

I think you exaggerated here.

There exist 3 flood plain wheats near Almarikh in the picture you posted above. 2 of them couldn't get used by any city even with a cultural expansion. A flood plain wheat plus a mined desert near a capital likely gets the city to 2 shields per turn, and the use of another tile may well get it to 3 shields per turn. Either way, towns near there still end up decent for producing workers.

I don't understand why you didn't place a city like Mandalgovi there. If the city were at the 8-7 spot from Ulaanbaatar (starting from Ulaanbaatar if you controlled a unit and pressed '8' and then '7' on the numpad, then the unit would reach the spot I refer to), the deer could have gotten used as soon as the city got founded.

And the worker roading the forest just outside of Mandalgovi? Are you automating workers? Have you thought about how to optimize worker moves before? It almost never ends up best to road a forest tile before chopping it. Maybe even to make the rule more clear, I would do better to say NEVER. Never road a forest. Chop a forest first. Then road.

As another suggestion, I see Darhan on a granary. But, if you have forests near a city, those forests can get chopped to get the granary in. For a 1 shield city with forests there exist a few different possibilites:

1. Build the granary without any workers. That could take 60 turns.
2. Put out a worker. Then chop a forest, have the worker at least road the tile afterwards, if it does not seem worth it to improve the tile. With just one worker produced, the city produces one worker in 10 turns, then after 1 + 4 = 5 more turns it has 10 shields back from the worker having chopped a tile. So, in 15 turns, the city has 15 shields back from the worker, and thus has recouped the shield cost of the worker taken off the granary. Given that the worker can chop one other tile reasonably, the city will then have 20 shields towards the granary in comparison to the 10 shield cost of one worker!

2 workers may take 20 turns to build, but 2 chops recoup their costs, and can improve tiles also. And there's enough turns for one worker to either add back into the city for more shields per turn from the city to have the granary finished sooner because of workers getting produced before a granary.

I am about to hit libraries and I am in desperate need of space.

I see space for another city, if not two, west/left of Kazan. From Kazan at the 4-1 spot could go another city and claim unused tiles.

Backing up even more, I see that you generally place cities at a CxxxC sort of pattern. The empire ends up with a fair amount of unworked tiles that way for a while. It does not suit military games as well as a CxxC sort of pattern and even CxC spacing.

Instead of Kazan where it sits, it going at the 8-8-8 spot from Karakorum could work better. You wanted to grab the horses with it's placement? Then placing a city at 8-8-8 from Karakorum, then another at the 7 spot from Kazan could work. Or from Karakroum, a city at the 8-8-9 spot instead of the 8-8-8 spot. Ta-Tu instead placed at the 7-7-7 spot from Karakorum, then a city where Ta-Tu sits now or at the 1 spot from where it now sits. A city at the 6-6 spot from Karakorum would make a lot of sense. A city at 1-1-4 from Karakorum, then Tabriz pushed further onto the coast also.

Was that 4 more cities? Darhan also looks far from Hovd to me. But with more cities and more tiles worked, you might just not feel so cramped.
 
There exist 3 flood plain wheats near Almarikh in the picture you posted above. 2 of them couldn't get used by any city even with a cultural expansion. A flood plain wheat plus a mined desert near a capital likely gets the city to 2 shields per turn, and the use of another tile may well get it to 3 shields per turn. Either way, towns near there still end up decent for producing workers.
My bad, obviously correct. I do have a city 6-6-6 of Almarikh at this point. It is though size 5 while the other cities have hit 12, so I guess you are right I really delayed that. Perhaps because the Aztecs attacked a few rounds later? But where did my setller from the capital go? He is ready in one round and he was supposed to go where you say. Not sure. Anyway, what I certainly remember from the screenshot is that I had exactly two settlers at that point and I was sending both of them towards the gems, hoping to grab them without isolating a city. They settled at Darhan and the ruins of the next screenshot. Then the Aztecs attacked
I don't understand why you didn't place a city like Mandalgovi there. If the city were at the 8-7 spot from Ulaanbaatar (starting from Ulaanbaatar if you controlled a unit and pressed '8' and then '7' on the numpad, then the unit would reach the spot I refer to), the deer could have gotten used as soon as the city got founded.
This one surprises me a bit. I chose the outward location that potentialy included both game and whales plus the gold, while denying space. You would have founded one city where you suggested and another on the coast? This is why it is building a temple (which never got built, I switched to a library a few rounds later)
And the worker roading the forest just outside of Mandalgovi? Are you automating workers? Have you thought about how to optimize worker moves before? It almost never ends up best to road a forest tile before chopping it. Maybe even to make the rule more clear, I would do better to say NEVER. Never road a forest. Chop a forest first. Then road.
Damn, you got me badly here. I have to be careful what screenshots I take, lol. This is a common mistake I make while being aware of it. In weak tundra cities, I get confused later about which tiles I have exploited by chopping and I get angry by ending up planting/chopping/planting without getting a boost in the end, so when the city is not expected to do something important, I sometimes ignore those forests completely so as to chop them all together later. I just connected the city (which is really not important at this point, I did not even have access to harbors at that point), mined the gold and went back to more major cities to assist. I know it is completley wrong logic in multiple steps, but I really cannot escape myself here.
As another suggestion, I see Darhan on a granary. But, if you have forests near a city, those forests can get chopped to get the granary in. For a 1 shield city with forests there exist a few different possibilites:
Oh, I chopped them all, I assure you. This is the exact round I made peace with the aztecs. Those 2 workers are from a caravan I killed at 6 of Darhan. I moved them there, improved the tiles for the undeveloped city, then chopped the forests below in time.
I see space for another city, if not two, west/left of Kazan. From Kazan at the 4-1 spot could go another city and claim unused tiles.

Backing up even more, I see that you generally place cities at a CxxxC sort of pattern. The empire ends up with a fair amount of unworked tiles that way for a while. It does not suit military games as well as a CxxC sort of pattern and even CxC spacing.

Instead of Kazan where it sits, it going at the 8-8-8 spot from Karakorum could work better. You wanted to grab the horses with it's placement? Then placing a city at 8-8-8 from Karakorum, then another at the 7 spot from Kazan could work. Or from Karakroum, a city at the 8-8-9 spot instead of the 8-8-8 spot. Ta-Tu instead placed at the 7-7-7 spot from Karakorum, then a city where Ta-Tu sits now or at the 1 spot from where it now sits. A city at the 6-6 spot from Karakorum would make a lot of sense. A city at 1-1-4 from Karakorum, then Tabriz pushed further onto the coast also.

Was that 4 more cities? Darhan also looks far from Hovd to me. But with more cities and more tiles worked, you might just not feel so cramped.
Yes I know. I use all kind of those formations in different games, but this remains my favorite one, despite being objectively the worst. It somehow gives me a better feeling that I care for my citizens potential future most, it seems like this is the way the game was "supposed" to be played and it balances the odds against the AI, who is wasting even more squares than the humans, allowing me to lower the level. And it is so pleasant at the industrial age, when all the map is so well exploited in harmony with minimum overlapping...For an emperor Mongol game with so many restrictions, perhaps I should have gone tighter I guess.
 
This one surprises me a bit. I chose the outward location that potentialy included both game and whales plus the gold, while denying space. You would have founded one city where you suggested and another on the coast?

Yes. Usually, I think of strictly ICS (CxC spacing) for tundra areas. Mandalgovi needs 20 turns to grow to size 2, and the temple takes a large number of turns to put up. More cities isn't likely to severely weaken other cities by corruption, unless you have strict ICS spacing over something like 30-50% of the domination limit, and even then core cities still have good productivity with The Forbidden Palace up.

This is why it is building a temple (which never got built, I switched to a library a few rounds later)

How many turns for that temple or library? A geographical area like Mandalgovi may well need a courthouse, a harbor, and a library before the library has use. But, those all take so long. Early on, I more think of cities for expanding worker and settler production and growth rate. Only when cities become ready to grow to their maximum size do I tend to think about serious infrastructure usually (unless maybe I have a core city I plan to use for worker or settler production well past the settling phase before aggressive war).

I know it is completley wrong logic in multiple steps, but I really cannot escape myself here.

Not for what you did. But, maybe, for the future, you might do things with a little more planning and at your own pace?


Yes I know. I use all kind of those formations in different games, but this remains my favorite one, despite being objectively the worst. It somehow gives me a better feeling that I care for my citizens potential future most, it seems like this is the way the game was "supposed" to be played and it balances the odds against the AI

I don't think you suggested anything about city spacing in your initial post for this thread.
 
I also do not like doing things the AI cannot do. Close city spacing is one of them, although I do permit myself to plant near AI borders otherwise culture would be irrelevant.

3 out of 4 neighbours being Agricultural is a bit rough. Having 4 direct neighbours for this challenge is pretty brutal unless you get a tech lead to buy lots of alliances. But crucially, none of them have a land based medieval UU. You got decent land area so using standard rules I think I would be turtling until I got tanks, which at least have some defensive power when combined with the higher defensive bonuses of metropolises. But then, I will look for any excuse to avoid war!
 
Oh, I meant building a temple or a library in order to expand and get the two good squares (whales and game).
No, I didnt suggest anything about CS. Why? I just started a game and chose that one for one reason or another.
Update: Oh, you mean the post of the specific game. You all are quite accurate in providing such information, I will keep in mind for the future.
 
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Things got better. They all ganged up vs the English. With all dirty tricks available on the book, it was me who got most cities in the end. The exact round I was about to invade Aztecs and hope they would not persuade someone to help them, the Iroquois declared war on Persia. They are the leading civ with 1-2 tech advancement lead from the rest and best score. I think I will move my stacks west and attack him in 3-4 rounds when the slaughterhouse will have already began. I cant let them get far ahead.
*those cathedrals are not to be built, do not comment on them, one is a pre-build (strangely only my capital has enough shields to compete in these map settings and all the flood plains around) and the other occured from a mischopping, I will see what i am going to do there...
civ3.png
 
Hmmm...I have an active trade with the Iroquois and I will get some hit in reputation. Perhaps I should stick to the original plan? Not sure how to handle it. And I just missed the chance to provoke war, he only now evacuated my lands.
 
I would still turtle to tanks! In a normal game I would try to ally with Iroquois against Persia in return for alliance against Aztecs. However, in this game Persia would direct an offensive at your cities given the low defensive stats. If you can remove Aztecs you would essentially only have a real threat on your western front. At the moment it is still a little perilous on 3 fronts. Looking promising now. Well done getting this far.
 
Rules: Only the fastest available land units are allowed. Can only build warriors (only until horses are secured and they are not to be ever upgraded), chariots, horsemen, UU knights, cavalry and modern armor.
Fergei, I think you're forgetting that tanks aren't on the allowed units list since cavalry is faster.
 
Fergei, I think you're forgetting that tanks aren't on the allowed units list since cavalry is faster.
Well modern armour then. I can turtle for millenia!

EDIT: although hard to imagine the AI would not attack cavalry defenses with their basic tanks. Yuck, I am not sure I will ever win this challenge without a decisive ancient era offensive.
 
Well modern armour then. I can turtle for millenia!

EDIT: although hard to imagine the AI would not attack cavalry defenses with their basic tanks. Yuck, I am not sure I will ever win this challenge without a decisive ancient era offensive.
That is all the fun. To reach the point that you have bombers and hundreds of cavarly against tanks without reaching a lost/won game earlier. If the battlefield reminds you of the final battle in Rambo III, then you have done it correctly. The settings allowing modern armors is just a final checkpoint to end the torture and also offer a feeiling that the Mongols have finally become....civilized. If you survive all the earlier difficulties and reach syn. fibers, it is over. You survived many difficult stages of the game and you are going to win now since you practicaly have no restrictions anymore (those armors defend well)
After PER and IRO got into war , things got an unexpected turn.
1. Next round of that event (immediately after my last post) I declared war on the Aztecs, immediately taking two cities, the gems (finally!), 3 trebuchets and about 10 slave workers. I estimate I can hold on against his counterattack. I just hope they will not get Maya to join them.
2. Persians get Aztecs to declare war to the Iroquois! I did not expect that...The Aztecs are in trouble of course and cannot contribute, but it offers the hint that Iroquois, although stronger, somehow do not hold the upper ground in the diplomatic field. I doubt my decision to attack the Aztecs was correct at this point.
3. At the same round, the Aztecs get the Indians to attack me. Phew. They are too far away, I should be able to make peace before they arrive.
4. On round 2, we get some bloodbath with the Aztecs, without worth mentioning gains or losses. He has the mumbers, but I carefully avoid getting attacked in my cities (except one, I forgot to pillage a road and lost 10 horsemen or something, I pathced it up with hurrying walls and was not attacked there again afterwards) But another civ is dragged into war with the Iroquois.
5. Same thing next rounds. Some stalemate with the Aztecs and Iroquois ends up in war with Persia, Scandinavia, India, Aztecs and Maya. Everybody except Rome, I expect that to occur soon.
6. I enter golden age and make peace, since my last objectives (cleaning up a front as you mentioned and taking the Pyramids from their capital) cannot be achieved and I am still worried the Mayans may be dragged against me. I even give Aztecs RoP to pass through to the west, but they are relatevely weak now. None of the Iroquois enemies have reached them yet-and it will take some time-but the Persians are holding their ground.
The plan is to attack them when the armies of the world arrive. I have no borders with the Persinas to gain something by attacking them Fergei. I think I must fight the leading civ with the rest. Poor lands next to me mostly, but next ring of cities is good and has a couple of juicy wonders.
 
AI logic out of the window. The Aztecs reach the Iroquois first through my lands and spill first blood killing a longbowman. They then ask for alliance against them. I refuse. Next round they make peace and head back. Next round, with their troops in the middle of nowhere, they ally with the Iroquios vs the Mayas (that they dragged into war earlier themselves)
 
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Things went well. I now hold a lot of ground, have a huge bank and I am leading 3 techs ahead. Both Chapel and Bach for a happy face overkill. No banks. All Indians, Scandinavians and Romans declared war by some point, but I was able to make peace before they reached my borders. Aztecs had a big war with the Mayas, then with the Indians (who brought an army of ancient cavarlies). Hundreds of dead troops for all sides inside my borders, both ending in a draw. I enjoyed watching. I did not exploit the pressure put on Aztecs, I participated in the slaughter of the leading civ, Iroquois along with the Persians, the Scandinavians and the Mayas. As earlier with the English, I took most of the cities, including another luxury and the Sun Tsu. Feels like cheating....Anyway, the Romans (backwards but strongest army in the continent and score leading civ) declared again after I refused to pay him a tech and this time I have to fight. His few first horsmen wave was more of a sport than a fight for my Keshiks, but his ground troop army is....huge...How many pages are those? I keep scrolling down and down The Mayas blocked his natural root to Almarikh, giving me the crucial tempo to react properly to his intended target that I now know. The restrictions are posing me with interesting challenges...
1. So much land but this is the only saltpeter resource I have. I need to defend it with only my Keshiks. I am in lack of visibility though. I wonder if he is going to attack me if I move Keshiks in the mountains. Some idiot neglected to build a road there unfortunately...Good thing the Mayas were similarly lazy. But is he going to interrupt a horseman movement in the middle in order to pillage? (he does have a horseman with is legion in the left) I do not think I have ever seen him doing exactly that. It is crucial because I am just about to obtain access to cavarly and upgrade a hell of keshiks with my savings.
2. No iron anywhere in my huge land. Somewhat justifying for playing the Mongols, making use of their UU, with any other civ I would have been in trouble. I just traded iron for the first time in the game to some guy in the other continest for some back tech, a luxury I couldnt sell anywhere and 6 communications. Zeez, that is too expensive. All that in order to upgrade seven (!) trebuchets into cannons. (slave ones, I restrict myself against building artillery units). I need to figure out something before steam power comes in play. There is no iron anywhere but to the center of the Mayans.
3. The terrain favors the Romans. They have a clear path to Almarikh without exposing his army to my cavarly. Thanks to the Mayans, I think I am in time to form out a better plan than attacking him on high ground (that 3 in defense for the legions hurts a lot). I have 16 slave workers on the move, they can reach the hills next to the city in 2 turns. They need two turns to build a fortress there I think. I think I can make it in time? I end turn and the fortress is ready right before his turn? Am I right? I just risk losing the workers (if the fortress drops) who have no time to move out? I need troops in both the fortress and the mountains (to prevent him crossing the river). Or I can just let him cross the river and stick to the fortress, I do not think he is going to maneuver like that. Weird to defend with cavarly against legions (the settings are paying of with creative moments...) Is he going to attack the mountains (125%) the fortress (150%) or is he going to expose himself in the flood plain? Do horse units retreat when defending fortresses? Too many interesting things for me to consider.
 
Great timing with military tradition or you would be in a tough spot. You still could be if the Romans take the saltpeter and/or approach a city from high ground. All very interesting. Destroy the Roman army without too many losses and survival for a diplomatic or space race victory seems possible.
 
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