Alternative campaign-the Mongols

[Fergei]

Apologies if you are not new to the editor kaskavel, but the main thing that confused me about the editor when I started is that you need to:

i) create a new .biq file, making sure it has a blank map (Map menu, clear map if required)
ii) make your changes and save it
iii) load up Civ3 and select 'Civ Content', load up your modified .biq file and play your game from that.

 

[kaskavel]

Relatively new, I just hadn't noticed that option. It rocks.

 

[Fergei]

My first attempt failed! I managed to take out the Ottomans, 6 French cities in eastern and western Russia and had got the Vikings down to 1x turn of existence left when they made a trade embargo (custom setting) with the Rifleman and Cavalry possessing Germans (I had just got Cavalry but none of my cities were defended by Cavalry). This mere trade embargo seemed enough to tip the Germans into immediate mid-turn hostility so I didn't even get a turn to consider scrambling to get an MPP with anyone that was a buffer between me and Germany, Bismarck struck and it was 'Goodnight Vienna'. There is no way I have the playing skills to defeat his units whilst defending my cities with Keshiks (defence 2). He took 4 cities in the first two turns.

After the war declaration I couldn't raise an MPP with anyone bordering Germany as he was so advanced that even offering 5 or 6 techs was nowhere near persuasive enough for another Civ to embrace suicide.

Five factors contributed to my loss, with the first one being by far the largest issue.

1) I am a lover, not a fighter. What is this war business? I preferred to feed my horses sugar cubes rather than endanger them.
2) Russia to my north popped a settlement straight away (as did I in fairness) and declared war. So I had a strong, hostile neighbour right to my north from the outset which hindered my teching and warfare plans against weaker neighbours.
3) Germany (with my slightly reduced aggression for Bismarck to make him less suicidal), only had one brief skirmish but otherwise focussed on teching and building.
4) Losing one of my armies in a bizarre culture flip to Sumeria killed my Keshik momentum and made me decide to try to race toward cavalry. By the time I got cavalry various neighbours to the south had locked themselves up in a variety of MPPs and got Gunpowder.
5) All the wars were in the middle east, Africa, southeast Asia and Americas (i.e. nowhere near my borders). So except for the Ottomans, all wars I was considering were against full strength doom-stacked AI Civs who were often in MPPs. With no defensive units I could not risk getting involved in a war of attrition, that might spread to another neighbour attacking me on another front. But that's the way the cookie crumbles and part of what makes the game so enjoyable. You don't know which AI Civs are going to be lifelong friends with eachother or stay at war for a full era.

A really, really interesting change of pace for me though. I will definitely revisit this one another time and ramp up my own aggression considerably and see what happens. Thanks again!

 

[kaskavel]

I will give it a try on Emperor, asking for some trouble myself. Arid, cool, 3 billion, no trading ancient tech, random barbs, big continents

Got a nice start...I do not reload the starting positions and I was lucky this time I think.

 

[kaskavel]

I extracted a settler, a tech, some gold and some knowledge of the continent from the expansionist trait, Not very impressive overall. Now I am just a guy with cheap barracks and faster mil experience.

I suffered two stupid wars with the iroquois and the persians on my west (and I also have that maniac Montezuma on my east) that held me back when there was much land to be settled and as a result, I am very squeezed and surrounded. On the other hand, I have good land (what kind of arid world is this by the way?), no need for aqueducts and at least 2 luxuries. I need to grab those gems before the English do. With 3 luxuries, I think I can make it.

 

[kaskavel]

The Aztecs beat me to the gems for 1 round. I founded a city next to the gems to go for the culture war, but Montezuma as expected had another kind of war in mind. I lost the city (where do all those aztec troops always come from?) and was about to lose Darhan as well, when my retreating armies produced a leader and my new founded army balanced the scales. I killed 30 troops but he kept coming. He even had convoys of settlers trying to pass through the battlefiend. Peace was eventualy agreed. At least I got an army and 6 foreign workers for my trouble. Now, I produce lots of horsemen, I am about to hit libraries and I am in desperate need of space.

 

[Spoonwood]

I am very squeezed and surrounded.

I think you exaggerated here.

There exist 3 flood plain wheats near Almarikh in the picture you posted above. 2 of them couldn't get used by any city even with a cultural expansion. A flood plain wheat plus a mined desert near a capital likely gets the city to 2 shields per turn, and the use of another tile may well get it to 3 shields per turn. Either way, towns near there still end up decent for producing workers.

I don't understand why you didn't place a city like Mandalgovi there. If the city were at the 8-7 spot from Ulaanbaatar (starting from Ulaanbaatar if you controlled a unit and pressed '8' and then '7' on the numpad, then the unit would reach the spot I refer to), the deer could have gotten used as soon as the city got founded.

And the worker roading the forest just outside of Mandalgovi? Are you automating workers? Have you thought about how to optimize worker moves before? It almost never ends up best to road a forest tile before chopping it. Maybe even to make the rule more clear, I would do better to say NEVER. Never road a forest. Chop a forest first. Then road.

As another suggestion, I see Darhan on a granary. But, if you have forests near a city, those forests can get chopped to get the granary in. For a 1 shield city with forests there exist a few different possibilites:

1. Build the granary without any workers. That could take 60 turns.
2. Put out a worker. Then chop a forest, have the worker at least road the tile afterwards, if it does not seem worth it to improve the tile. With just one worker produced, the city produces one worker in 10 turns, then after 1 + 4 = 5 more turns it has 10 shields back from the worker having chopped a tile. So, in 15 turns, the city has 15 shields back from the worker, and thus has recouped the shield cost of the worker taken off the granary. Given that the worker can chop one other tile reasonably, the city will then have 20 shields towards the granary in comparison to the 10 shield cost of one worker!

2 workers may take 20 turns to build, but 2 chops recoup their costs, and can improve tiles also. And there's enough turns for one worker to either add back into the city for more shields per turn from the city to have the granary finished sooner because of workers getting produced before a granary.

I am about to hit libraries and I am in desperate need of space.

I see space for another city, if not two, west/left of Kazan. From Kazan at the 4-1 spot could go another city and claim unused tiles.

Backing up even more, I see that you generally place cities at a CxxxC sort of pattern. The empire ends up with a fair amount of unworked tiles that way for a while. It does not suit military games as well as a CxxC sort of pattern and even CxC spacing.

Instead of Kazan where it sits, it going at the 8-8-8 spot from Karakorum could work better. You wanted to grab the horses with it's placement? Then placing a city at 8-8-8 from Karakorum, then another at the 7 spot from Kazan could work. Or from Karakroum, a city at the 8-8-9 spot instead of the 8-8-8 spot. Ta-Tu instead placed at the 7-7-7 spot from Karakorum, then a city where Ta-Tu sits now or at the 1 spot from where it now sits. A city at the 6-6 spot from Karakorum would make a lot of sense. A city at 1-1-4 from Karakorum, then Tabriz pushed further onto the coast also.

Was that 4 more cities? Darhan also looks far from Hovd to me. But with more cities and more tiles worked, you might just not feel so cramped.

 

[kaskavel]

There exist 3 flood plain wheats near Almarikh in the picture you posted above. 2 of them couldn't get used by any city even with a cultural expansion. A flood plain wheat plus a mined desert near a capital likely gets the city to 2 shields per turn, and the use of another tile may well get it to 3 shields per turn. Either way, towns near there still end up decent for producing workers.

My bad, obviously correct. I do have a city 6-6-6 of Almarikh at this point. It is though size 5 while the other cities have hit 12, so I guess you are right I really delayed that. Perhaps because the Aztecs attacked a few rounds later? But where did my setller from the capital go? He is ready in one round and he was supposed to go where you say. Not sure. Anyway, what I certainly remember from the screenshot is that I had exactly two settlers at that point and I was sending both of them towards the gems, hoping to grab them without isolating a city. They settled at Darhan and the ruins of the next screenshot. Then the Aztecs attacked

I don't understand why you didn't place a city like Mandalgovi there. If the city were at the 8-7 spot from Ulaanbaatar (starting from Ulaanbaatar if you controlled a unit and pressed '8' and then '7' on the numpad, then the unit would reach the spot I refer to), the deer could have gotten used as soon as the city got founded.

This one surprises me a bit. I chose the outward location that potentialy included both game and whales plus the gold, while denying space. You would have founded one city where you suggested and another on the coast? This is why it is building a temple (which never got built, I switched to a library a few rounds later)

And the worker roading the forest just outside of Mandalgovi? Are you automating workers? Have you thought about how to optimize worker moves before? It almost never ends up best to road a forest tile before chopping it. Maybe even to make the rule more clear, I would do better to say NEVER. Never road a forest. Chop a forest first. Then road.

Damn, you got me badly here. I have to be careful what screenshots I take, lol. This is a common mistake I make while being aware of it. In weak tundra cities, I get confused later about which tiles I have exploited by chopping and I get angry by ending up planting/chopping/planting without getting a boost in the end, so when the city is not expected to do something important, I sometimes ignore those forests completely so as to chop them all together later. I just connected the city (which is really not important at this point, I did not even have access to harbors at that point), mined the gold and went back to more major cities to assist. I know it is completley wrong logic in multiple steps, but I really cannot escape myself here.

As another suggestion, I see Darhan on a granary. But, if you have forests near a city, those forests can get chopped to get the granary in. For a 1 shield city with forests there exist a few different possibilites:

Oh, I chopped them all, I assure you. This is the exact round I made peace with the aztecs. Those 2 workers are from a caravan I killed at 6 of Darhan. I moved them there, improved the tiles for the undeveloped city, then chopped the forests below in time.

I see space for another city, if not two, west/left of Kazan. From Kazan at the 4-1 spot could go another city and claim unused tiles.

Backing up even more, I see that you generally place cities at a CxxxC sort of pattern. The empire ends up with a fair amount of unworked tiles that way for a while. It does not suit military games as well as a CxxC sort of pattern and even CxC spacing.

Instead of Kazan where it sits, it going at the 8-8-8 spot from Karakorum could work better. You wanted to grab the horses with it's placement? Then placing a city at 8-8-8 from Karakorum, then another at the 7 spot from Kazan could work. Or from Karakroum, a city at the 8-8-9 spot instead of the 8-8-8 spot. Ta-Tu instead placed at the 7-7-7 spot from Karakorum, then a city where Ta-Tu sits now or at the 1 spot from where it now sits. A city at the 6-6 spot from Karakorum would make a lot of sense. A city at 1-1-4 from Karakorum, then Tabriz pushed further onto the coast also.

Was that 4 more cities? Darhan also looks far from Hovd to me. But with more cities and more tiles worked, you might just not feel so cramped.

Yes I know. I use all kind of those formations in different games, but this remains my favorite one, despite being objectively the worst. It somehow gives me a better feeling that I care for my citizens potential future most, it seems like this is the way the game was "supposed" to be played and it balances the odds against the AI, who is wasting even more squares than the humans, allowing me to lower the level. And it is so pleasant at the industrial age, when all the map is so well exploited in harmony with minimum overlapping...For an emperor Mongol game with so many restrictions, perhaps I should have gone tighter I guess.

 

[Spoonwood]

This one surprises me a bit. I chose the outward location that potentialy included both game and whales plus the gold, while denying space. You would have founded one city where you suggested and another on the coast?

Yes. Usually, I think of strictly ICS (CxC spacing) for tundra areas. Mandalgovi needs 20 turns to grow to size 2, and the temple takes a large number of turns to put up. More cities isn't likely to severely weaken other cities by corruption, unless you have strict ICS spacing over something like 30-50% of the domination limit, and even then core cities still have good productivity with The Forbidden Palace up.

This is why it is building a temple (which never got built, I switched to a library a few rounds later)

How many turns for that temple or library? A geographical area like Mandalgovi may well need a courthouse, a harbor, and a library before the library has use. But, those all take so long. Early on, I more think of cities for expanding worker and settler production and growth rate. Only when cities become ready to grow to their maximum size do I tend to think about serious infrastructure usually (unless maybe I have a core city I plan to use for worker or settler production well past the settling phase before aggressive war).

I know it is completley wrong logic in multiple steps, but I really cannot escape myself here.

Not for what you did. But, maybe, for the future, you might do things with a little more planning and at your own pace?

Yes I know. I use all kind of those formations in different games, but this remains my favorite one, despite being objectively the worst. It somehow gives me a better feeling that I care for my citizens potential future most, it seems like this is the way the game was "supposed" to be played and it balances the odds against the AI

I don't think you suggested anything about city spacing in your initial post for this thread.

 

[Fergei]

I also do not like doing things the AI cannot do. Close city spacing is one of them, although I do permit myself to plant near AI borders otherwise culture would be irrelevant.

3 out of 4 neighbours being Agricultural is a bit rough. Having 4 direct neighbours for this challenge is pretty brutal unless you get a tech lead to buy lots of alliances. But crucially, none of them have a land based medieval UU. You got decent land area so using standard rules I think I would be turtling until I got tanks, which at least have some defensive power when combined with the higher defensive bonuses of metropolises. But then, I will look for any excuse to avoid war!

 

[kaskavel]

Oh, I meant building a temple or a library in order to expand and get the two good squares (whales and game).
No, I didnt suggest anything about CS. Why? I just started a game and chose that one for one reason or another.
Update: Oh, you mean the post of the specific game. You all are quite accurate in providing such information, I will keep in mind for the future.