Am I an idiot? (Help with ToT)

[MAndersson]

OK, no real need to answer my first question there... I've been playing for several months now, and I never seem to be able to get to the "Modern Era" before the late 1800s/early 1900s. I keep hearing of people who manage to get there thousands of years earlier...

I've read the guides. I've read the manual (cover to cover). I've cheated by checking out where the resources are and then restarting to build only in the best locations. I've tried building cities stacked-up next to each other. I've tried the "Science City/Trade City". Anybody care to point out what I'm doing wrong?

Am I too worried about the tech tree/research? I still don't think I fully understand how taxation relates to gameplay (other than how quickly I research things and how much $$ I accumulate). I also don't understand the finer points of managing happiness...

Oh, yeah; one more thing. I just finished reading Alan Nicoll's guide -- _how_ does one "carefully manage" PDSs?

Maybe if somebody would allow me to look over their shoulder in a MP game to see what I should be doing... ???

Help!

--Mike Andersson

 

[Johan511]

My advice is to stop playing Civ2 and wait until Civ3 comes out...LOL
Actually if you want to know, everything is already here and written for you, no one can hold your hand, if you find out for yourself, maybe you can be the Elite of us. But if I hold your hand, you can only be me on my playground, and probably never your own.
Try not to feel hard at me, I'm would help you gladly if I didn't know that the answers where right below your nose. =)

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[Brad]

Oh man, it was a rhetorical question... and here i thought it was a perfect setup. Oh well, I can't win 'em all

. Well, use your boarder cities to produce more defence then your inner cities, use them for other things. Hope it's at leasgt a little helpfull. Good Luck.

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Silence Fills the Nothingness.

Even though stuff happens that we don't plan, be a man... use you hand.

I'm in love and it's my job to make other people jealous.
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[Supernaut]

Don't be too intimidated by people on this forum - some of them are rather good, and some of them BS a bit. But I still think you should be getting tech a few hundred years quicker than that (I'm assuming that by modern era you mean roughly industrialisation onwards). A few question might help work out what is going on:

What level are you playing on? You get techs much quicker on lower levels, and there are more turns, so start on Chieftain or Warlord and then work up once you have managed it.

How many cities do you have? The consensus on the forum seems to be that about 15 is a good number to aim for in the initial stages. Are you making good use of special resource squares (and sea squares)? Are you building roads in all the squares which produce trade? Makes a heck of a difference. Also, are you building the improvements which allow your cities to grow? (Aqueducts and Sewers, but also the happy improvements.) And of course, if you are interested in tech, build those libraries/universities.

What govt are you in? If tech is what you want, you want to be going for republic and democracy asap.

Always make sure your science level is as high as possible. In the early stages you don't really need luxuries (unless you are playing some of the strategies set out around here) so it's a straight trade off between science and money. Later on, you will need to use luxuries to maintain happiness (especially in republic and democracy) but if you are going for tech then luxuries can be kept to 20 or 30%, provided you have marketplaces and banks.

Use lots of caravans to build trade routes to increase your flow of arrows.

Managing happiness is one of the main parts of the game, but maybe should be another topic. But a big tip is don't go to Republic until you have Michalangelo's Chapel - that makes a heck of a difference. Another subtlety which I only picked up from this forum is that once you have a lot of cities, they become unhappier more easily. For example, if you are in a Monarchy, then every city after the 10th will produce an unhappy citizen one citizen earlier than the first 10. (does anyone know what the numbers are for each govt type? 'Cos I've forgotten, and could do with knowing

)

Hope all this helps.

 

[MAndersson]

Originally posted by Supernaut:
Don't be too intimidated by people on this forum - some of them are rather good, and some of them BS a bit. But I still think you should be getting tech a few hundred years quicker than that (I'm assuming that by modern era you mean roughly industrialisation onwards).

Yes, that's approximately what I mean. I seem to be doing better in this current game; I've become industrialized during the mid-1700s, but that's still not as good as what I perceive others are doing.

What level are you playing on?

Typically at the two lowest levels.

How many cities do you have?

This game I had 13, but then I started doing some more exploration and keep finding "advanced tribes". Now I have 22.

The consensus on the forum seems to be that about 15 is a good number to aim for in the initial stages.

Initial stages of each game? Or just in general as a beginner?

Are you making good use of special resource squares (and sea quares)? Are you building roads in all the squares which produce trade?

Absolutely! As soon as I can, I mine ores (coal, gold, iron) and put roads where most beneficial (forests, shield grassland), etc.

Also, are you building the improvements which allow your cities to grow? (Aqueducts and Sewers, but also the happy improvements.)

Yes, usually as soon as they're necessary for additional growth.

And of course, if you are interested in tech, build those libraries/universities.

Of course.

What govt are you in? If tech is what you want, you want to be going for republic and democracy asap.

Normally, yes, republic or democracy, but using fund to war advantage.

Always make sure your science level is as high as possible.

{rest of paragraph snipped}

OK... This is where I'm not sure of myself. I have been setting science as high as possible early on, then upping the luxury, seemingly to advantage...

It seems a bit strange that once supermarkets are available that markeplaces are still valuable...

Use lots of caravans to build trade routes to increase your flow of arrows.

OK; that's one I probably hadn't been using enough...

Hope all this helps.

I really appreciate it. I'll incorporate the comments in my gameplay and see what happens.

Another question: I've seen references to the power graph. Obviously, it shows up at the end of a game, but is there some way to see it during gameplay? And I'm not getting any advice from the advisors (other than in the city screen as to what I ought to build). Are these 'cause I have ToT?

Thanks again.

 

[Supernaut]

Sounds like you're improving already <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0>

One point I forgot to mention is about wonders - you said you'd tried the SSC strategy, so I assume you're building the Colussus, Copernicus, Issac Newton's etc. At the levels you are playing, the Great Library is unlikely to be much use.

On the number of cities, 15 seems the consensus for the first part of a game, though I personally try to splurge in every direction that's safe early on when there is lots of land to be grabbed, and again later on when I'm too strong to be stopped.

On the luxuries/science ratio, maybe you are being too generous with the luxuries. I try not to have any while I am in Monarchy, but keep order with improvements and units. Try experimenting with how low you can keep luxuries for a few games until you get better at developing techs.

The order you are researching might make some difference. For instance, go for the techs that give you libraries and universities before military improvements. And try not to go fundy if you are serious about research. In fact, try to avoid war at all - to get some serious research done, you tend to need to remain at peace with people (or at least, I find that). Once you've got your tank divisions ready, then you can blow them away pretty quickly <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/tank.gif" border=0> <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/spanking.gif" border=0>

Finially, try to trade techs where possible, and apparently, if you give techs away, this speeds up your research, so it might be worth being generous (for now

)

As for marketplaces staying around - presumably by the modern era, those quaint little bazaars have been replaced by huge supermalls!

I'm not sure if you can view the powergraph in play - I always save and retire anyway, 'cos I like to check my score and % (and, of course, see if I am 'Magnificent' yet!). I think advisors only come up in the city screen, unless you turn them off - check your game options.

[This message has been edited by Supernaut (edited June 12, 2001).]

 

[starlifter]

For reference, I shoot for about 140 cities on a large map, deity level... I rarely reach that number anymore until I conquer some enemy, because I'm more efficient at empire building than before, and the enemy is eliminated much more quickly than when i was first playing.

In Monarchy, I typically have about 50-60 cities at the time I get Michelangelo's Chapel. Most are size 5 to 8, and typically one or two are 12 if I have sanitation. Many of the size 8's have 2 scientists to mainain happiness, which arrests growth, or even causes starvation of -1 food per turn (which I don't mind because I have Pyramids, or at least graneries).

The science output of a monarchy is quite high for me, because I use 0% luxuries, and no entertainers unless starvation greater than one occurs... all my happiness is controlled with units and scientists.

If I have been fighting a difficult war on several fronts and I'm not organized for Democracy when I build the Statue of Liberty, I'll usually switch to Fundamentalism (or Communism), steal techs, deliver caravans, and set 20% sci/80% tax... and use the money to rush-build temples, marketplaces, harbors, banks, colesseums, courthouses, sewer systems, and a few libraries. By Industrialization, or completion of Women's Sufferage at the latest, the empire is ready for a very happy democracy and huge growth... just in time for pollution.

It takes about 4 to 6 turns of growth in a Democracy to outpace the original tax output of Fundamentalism. But once those (now about 80 or 90) cities grow in the WLTP days... lookout... the taxes will far exceed Fundy, and if you deliver freight overseas, you will gain an advance every turn. If you turn the science up to 50% (lux at 30% to grow), you'll get two advances every turn!

So the last (roughly 40) advances can easily be done in 20-25 game turns, under Democracy.

On a different subject... happiness. In addition to factors mentioned in prior posts, the form of government drastically affects the intrinsic happiness of the citizens. For example, the first citizen in a new city under monarchy may be black (double unhappy), while the same exact citizen under Communism is dark blue (content). Naturally, this makes the ultimate control of the city's happiness easier if the citizens are "born" content.

Something that you might be missing if you are new. Caravans and frieght generate an equal amount of science as gold. If a freight reports 356 gold for establishing a new route, you also get 356 beakers of science. Under Fundamentalism, that total is not halved, like you normal science production is... you get it all.

One more thing. Republic and democracy have many subtlties, but one thing that holds people back is the support shields that these gov'ts pay. But the real power is in how quickly they grow.... when you first swtich to republic or Democracy, your production output will be lower because of unit support. But if you force the cities to grow, in 5 turns, an size 3 city can be size 8. Even with pyramids, that would take dozens of turns under monarchy, fundy, or commie. In almost all cases, a republic size 8 city will net more shields than a monarchy's size 3. republics (and of course democracies) experience far less waste and corruption, too.

 

[MAndersson]

Originally posted by starlifter:
For reference, I shoot for about 140 cities on a large map, deity level...

I presume you're using the autobuild feature (properly customized, of course)? 140 cities seems like a lot to micromanage...

once those (now about 80 or 90) cities grow in the WLTP days...

OK, but how do I make WLTP days happen? They always seem to be random events. OK, not really; I can tell that they're associated with the construction of a Colosseum or a Cathedral or other happy-maker. But in general, how does one make WLTPs happen? Increase Luxury to something high?

 

[Goatman]

You said that you read the manual cover to cover?

WLTP days happen when there are more happy people than content people in your cities (it's in the manual). Also, there must be no unhappy or angry people in your cities. This is about the only thing that luxuries are good for, have them set as low as possibe without causing major civil disorder.

Unless you have anything to rush-build, or are at war with anyone (same thing) I would suggest that you keep your taxes as low as possible in order to get high level techs and faster and solve your problem.

Personally, I find building cities a waste of time. If you play with seven civs that re-start it is much easier to simply conquer your opponents cities.

Many people on this site seem to be against this Idea allthough I can't see why.

 

[starlifter]

Personally, I find building cities a waste of time. If you play with seven civs that re-start it is much easier to simply conquer your opponents cities.

LOL, its not one or the other... but in fact, I actually destroy some of the AI cities after I take them. That's because they often are not in a good location, or interfere with another city.

But in late game, it is nice to take a good city intact, using a bribe. Saves a lot of construction time.